M10 color rendition compared to M9-M240-SL cameras

[cirke]

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The color rendition depends on firmware/software only, same thing for monochrome, any sensor color can do the same with another firmware/software

 

[Guest]

That any sensor color rendition can me emulated by firmware and software is simply not true — just Adan's posts #62 and #78 show that. 

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[jaapv]

 

The color rendition depends on firmware/software only, same thing for monochrome, any sensor color can do the same with another firmware/software

 

 

Well, that is not quite true, as the colour input of the software is determined by the dyes on the Bayer filter., nor is it true for monochrome sensors, as the differentiation of tonal values depends on the spectral response of the filter stack (and filter on the lens).

[cirke]

With same sensor generation ? you will never see any difference 

[olgierdc]

With same sensor generation ? you will never see any difference 

 

 

Perhaps, you may be able to reproduce a single color but not the entire color set on a particular image. Each color reacts differently in a given sensor. Another is the signal amplifier, micro lens, filters, etc. Add to this the difference in sensor dynamics and the response to the gain level of each color channel. Of course, the differences in colors are usually small, but for the attentive viewer are obvious.

[cirke]

Of course, the differences in colors are usually small, but for the attentive viewer are obvious.

 

no

[wattsy]

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It is always useful to remember that the "color" we see doesn't really exist until processed by the brain. Something is not "yellow" until we decide, by processing signals from the retina in the visual cortex, that it matches up with our stored neural definition of yellow. Prior to entering the eye, it is just a certain band of wavelengths (or combinations of bands) on the EM spectrum.

 

Who is to say that humans' perception or opinion of color is more trustworthy that, say, bees'? Bees have been around a lot longer (if you favor tradition) and there are billions more of them (if you believe the majority is always right), and their vision covers a wider range of the EM spectrum than what we see as light.

 

 

 

Yes but I don't the relative subjectiveness of the human interpretation of colour matters because we view the world (including photographs) through our own eyes and not those of bees.

[olgierdc]

With same sensor generation ? you will never see any difference 

 

What does it mean the same generation? M9, M240, M10 are of quite different generations. Not true?

[IkarusJohn]

Thanks Andy and others for yet another gem of an informative thread.

[Guest]

All the chatter here on whether one sensor can emulate another one through firmware and software is beginning to sound like how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. Let's get back to the original topic.

 

 

My experience with the M10 is that I can fairly well reproduce the color rendition of the M9 either by using, as a starting point, a Lightroom preset that a photographer friend sent me, or by using some VSCO presets, also with adjustments. The VSCO presets I've found useful for this purpose are:

— VSCO Film 06 Push & Pull presets [L - Portra 800⁺¹ -] and [L - Portra 400⁺¹ -], and sometimes

— VSCO Film 05 preset [L - Kodak Ektar 100 -].

 

For B&W, similar to the M9, I've found Silver Efex gives me results that I like better than using Lightroom alone, or by using VSCO B&W presets. However, I find it useful to first try one of the VSCO 06 Tri-X presets, usually  [L - Tri-X⁺³ -], in order to judge the look that I want to go for in SEFEX.

 

One thing I've found in terms of rendition though, both in color and B&W, is that application of Clarity as high as in the +30-40 range, or even higher, does not result in "haloes" in the M10 images, unlike those one gets in M9 images. Does anyone know why the effect is so different for M10 files?

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Alone in Bangkok essay on BURN Magazine

[adan]

Can't say I've paid attention to Clarity on the M10 - I don't use it.

 

But the Adobe "Clarity" slider is basically just an Unsharp Mask with a (fixed) extremely large Radius (say, 100+ pixels) and a very low Amount (say, 10-15%).

 

USM users long ago discovered you could get a boost in contrast and "pop"- as well as some sharpness by using such settings - and Adobe simply ripped off the technique and gave it its own slider and name.

 

(You can try it yourself!)

 

Since it is just a version of USM, haloes as such are not surprising. I'd guess the M9's inherent slightly higher per-pixel sharpness and contrast (less DR - as noted in post #43 of this thread) just makes halos show up more readily (you're sharpening edge sharpness that is already there).

[jaapv]

And the halos are even worse on the MM1. I presume on the MM2 too best not to touch the slider with those cameras.

[adan]

Makes sense - the Monochroms have even higher per-pixel native sharpness, since their images do not have to be debayerized (swapping or borrowing of luminance values between neighboring r, g, b, pixels to get rid of the RGB checkboard pattern - effectively, a very slight blurring, akin to an anti-alias filter, but inherent in the data processing, not a physical low-pass layer in the cover glass.)

[Chaemono]

These are a select few from today just for color. The less saturated Adobe Standard Profile works so well with the Summilux-SL. Using the embedded profile results in comical characters for these shots IMO. I can post comparisons if anyone is interested.

 

Full resolution here:

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-bWQMjV/

 

Lower res here (for people with slow connections):

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-Zh8Lm2/

[jaapv]

Anyway, for anyone struggling with colour I can thoroughly recommend ON1 Photo Raw. The (tweakable) presets with thumbnails make anticipating the result so much easier and the outcome more consistent.

[Ernest]

Yes but I don't the relative subjectiveness of the human interpretation of colour matters because we view the world (including photographs) through our own eyes and not those of bees.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ernest]

Yes, while subjectivity is a given, we learn colors by what they are not; blue is blue because it is not red, or green, or yellow, and so forth. When Adan talks about the "stored neural definition of yellow," this complex learning process is inferred.

 

 

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[Per P.]

This is a fascinating thread. And everyone contributing are considerably more expert in this field than I am so thank you for sharing your experiences and viewpoints!

 

I only have very few M10 photos so far but nonetheless have started the journey towards a standard import preset. My first question is whether to use the M10 or Adobe camera profile? the M10 profile seems considerably more vivid and, so far, I think I like it better. Are there anyone else, other than Adan, who prefers this rendition as their starting point?

 

Second question - lens corrections: They seem to be set for "Remove chromatic abberations" and "Enable profile corrections". Is there any particular reason to modify these setting?

 

Thanks all - a new camera always feels a bit like starting over again

[Chaemono]

Are there anyone else, other than Adan, who prefers this rendition as their starting point?

Yes, I do. Colors are more punchy. Dealt with the yellows in the presets. Just a quick test shot.

 

Adobe Standard - very subdued, less saturated colors.

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M10 with presets to deal with the yellows.

 

M10 no adjustments. Yellows are off.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Chaemono]

And here's a link to full resolution of the three above:

 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-fXtr7J/