Leica M10 officially announced

[ramarren]

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To me, the significant upgrades that I'd like to have from the M10 are the viewfinder optics, the improved sensor, and the improved in-body IO performance.

 

As an improvement on my M-P ... well, I stopped using the M-P for the M-D some time ago. But I can see the improvment in the controls and menus. As an improvement on the M-D, what I list above is compelling.

 

When they come out with the M-D10, I might be in for it.

[Paul J]

Well, I guess the fact that Leica will continue to offer the M(240) for those wanting tethering, this isn't the end of the world - it just means that this version of the M isn't for you.

 

As it also has "only" 24MP, it isn't for you anyway ...

 

 

But the point is, it seems there will never be another M for someone that needs to tether. Not now and most likely not ever, even if the M does increase resolution for which I had held out hope for. Don't you see the difference? Dropping the connectivity and a core need for a professional who needs to tether is the last thing I would expect Leica to do being. You might say that's not the end of the world but if they took some feature that you needed as a bare minimum and you weren't able to use an M ever again after I think you'd be pretty pissed too. What Leica does best is abandon its users.

[wattsie]

I thought the only thing the M was ever designed to be tethered to is your hand. ;-)

[almoore]

You might say that's not the end of the world but if they took some feature that you needed as a bare minimum and you weren't able to use an M ever again after I think you'd be pretty pissed too.

So much hyperbole.

 

Leica may well have lost one shouty 'professional' with the introduction of the M10, but they might also gain sales from other less excitable professionals who never liked the earlier digital Ms but still have lenses from their film days. To me, this looks like an elegant and refined camera that will serve photographers - whether amateur or professional - well. Time will tell.

[IkarusJohn]

But the point is, it seems there will never be another M for someone that needs to tether. Not now and most likely not ever, even if the M does increase resolution for which I had held out hope for. Don't you see the difference? Dropping the connectivity and a core need for a professional who needs to tether is the last thing I would expect Leica to do being. You might say that's not the end of the world but if they took some feature that you needed as a bare minimum and you weren't able to use an M ever again after I think you'd be pretty pissed too. What Leica does best is abandon its users.

 

Where did you get that idea?

 

There must be a reason that Leica called this camera M10, and they continue to offer the M(240) for those who want tethering.  There does seem to be a reason they dropped as many body penetrations as they could (improved weather sealing).  More critically, I'm not sure that I agree with you that tethering is compatible with the market this camera is aimed at.  For Leica, if tethering is your thing, that means that you're shooting in a studio (generally) - Leica would say, use an S.

 

For me, the M system is all about the fabulous lenses, in a small manual package.  Where you may have liked the M(240) release (I can't recall), I didn't; because I saw it as a move away from the strength of the M system, and a poor iteration.  Much like PeterH, I felt that if the M was to have an EVF, it should be the best EVF, and if it was to have video, it had to be the best iteration available.  There were too many things in the M(240) which detracted from its core functionality as a manual stills camera with an optical viewfinder.  The M60 has proven me correct - it is essentially an M-P sensor, processor and viewfinder, with nothing else, and it works very well, thank you very much.

 

You have explained to us in detail and at length over the last few years that the M camera needs at least 50MP to be of any use to a professional photographer, and now tethering is also essential.  Conversely, Leica has developed with M camera expressly with a 24MP ceiling as they believe for 35mm format, this is the sweet spot - they clearly have no intention of going further with current technologies.  Now they have decided that if they wish to improve the M camera, it will be without video or tethering.

 

I don't think the M camera is for you - at least, not with your stated needs.  Conversely, if you take it as it is (rather than worrying about what it isn't), I suspect you'd find a camera you'd really like.  I suspect there is another M iteration around the corner, as they will not make the M(240) indefinitely - It may have tethering, but then does that really fit with the M concept?

[Paul J]

Where did you get that idea?

 

There must be a reason that Leica called this camera M10, and they continue to offer the M(240) for those who want tethering.  There does seem to be a reason they dropped as many body penetrations as they could (improved weather sealing).  More critically, I'm not sure that I agree with you that tethering is compatible with the market this camera is aimed at.  For Leica, if tethering is your thing, that means that you're shooting in a studio (generally) - Leica would say, use an S.

 

For me, the M system is all about the fabulous lenses, in a small manual package.  Where you may have liked the M(240) release (I can't recall), I didn't; because I saw it as a move away from the strength of the M system, and a poor iteration.  Much like PeterH, I felt that if the M was to have an EVF, it should be the best EVF, and if it was to have video, it had to be the best iteration available.  There were too many things in the M(240) which detracted from its core functionality as a manual stills camera with an optical viewfinder.  The M60 has proven me correct - it is essentially an M-P sensor, processor and viewfinder, with nothing else, and it works very well, thank you very much.

 

You have explained to us in detail and at length over the last few years that the M camera needs at least 50MP to be of any use to a professional photographer, and now tethering is also essential.  Conversely, Leica has developed with M camera expressly with a 24MP ceiling as they believe for 35mm format, this is the sweet spot - they clearly have no intention of going further with current technologies.  Now they have decided that if they wish to improve the M camera, it will be without video or tethering.

 

I don't think the M camera is for you - at least, not with your stated needs.  Conversely, if you take it as it is (rather than worrying about what it isn't), I suspect you'd find a camera you'd really like.  I suspect there is another M iteration around the corner, as they will not make the M(240) indefinitely - It may have tethering, but then does that really fit with the M concept?

Resolution is a whole separate issue. I still use my 18MP M9 often, but it is ultimately limited to what it can do and that causes problems. That is a whole other issue that is complicated and I won't bog down this discussion with.

 

Now, that is not my primary concern because the path that this system is seemingly going down is far more a concern, not being able to use it at all in the same way. If it were true that another model was bought out with a USB port then I wouldn't be here arguing, but judging on the info on Leica's website, I don't think another line is going to happen like people are talking about here. ie. a simple line and a full featured line.

 

The end use should not matter; professional, amateur, art, transpotting, slelfies, whatever. The function of it should matter. Reducing the function and usefulness of it should really matter particularly when people have built up a system around it and have been using it for the best part of a decade.

 

At its core, the reason I love this system is for the same reasons as you. Lenses which are incredible in a small and very flexible package. For me it is primarily about aesthetics, something that becomes an integral part of a photographers work and changing it is risky, especially when you rely on it for your living. If you get hired for something and then deliver something different, it is not good.

 

Believe me, I have searched far and wide for another system that replaces it but there isn't another one. You mention the S System, that was actually a serious possibility as the lenses have a similar look - but it does not replace some of the main reasons I use the M. Worse still, the S is in just as bad a state. On digiloyd recently it has been rumoured that Leica has killed that off too!

[Paul J]

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John I agree with you that the M is defenaity not a studio camera, but as to the 24mpx ceiling I tend to disagree. Given the lineup of lenses available for the system I truly think the bar can and should be set higher.

As to the M240 it was and still is an incredible body. I did not have a single complaint about it , in fact one of mine has been with me almost each and every day for the past 4 + years. In 4 years I have maybe taken 3 or 4 videos with it but I can tell you I have never accidentally hit that button so it never bothered me at all.

But I tell you what I will miss if I was to trade for the 10. It would be the battery capacity. And for what ? 3.5 mm ? That is the biggest most bullshit gripe most of you had that I just could not get my head around. 3.5mm when almost all of you will end up sticking your slim trim new M10, in a Luigi case and stick a thumbs up on top. And then change you battery more often.

 

The poor M240 will go down in history like the M5 , the best digital M ever made and the most misunderstood

 

It is a perfectly good studio camera and the studio is not the only place to tether.

[IkarusJohn]

John I agree with you that the M is defenaity not a studio camera, but as to the 24mpx ceiling I tend to disagree. Given the lineup of lenses available for the system I truly think the bar can and should be set higher.

As to the M240 it was and still is an incredible body. I did not have a single complaint about it , in fact one of mine has been with me almost each and every day for the past 4 + years. In 4 years I have maybe taken 3 or 4 videos with it but I can tell you I have never accidentally hit that button so it never bothered me at all.

But I tell you what I will miss if I was to trade for the 10. It would be the battery capacity. And for what ? 3.5 mm ? That is the biggest most bullshit gripe most of you had that I just could not get my head around. 3.5mm when almost all of you will end up sticking your slim trim new M10, in a Luigi case and stick a thumbs up on top. And then change you battery more often.

 

The poor M240 will go down in history like the M5 , the best digital M ever made and the most misunderstood

 

To be honest, I don't understand the ins and outs of more MP.  It is a measurable comparison, but I really can't say whether it's more than that.  I have had two 36MP cameras - the A7r and the D800e - and gelled with neither.  I have gelled with the M9, M60 and SL, all with 24MP and I don't suffer for it.  That's not to say you're wrong, just that I'm happy with 24MP; I don't ever feel the need for more; I don't know if a 36MP or 50MP M camera would be better, but I tend to trust Leica in this respect.  MP count is right up there with the location of the strap lugs for me ...

 

I don't have a Luigi case (I did for my M9, but ditched it as I prefer my cameras naked), and I don't have a thumbs up either - are you mistaking me for someone else?

 

Cheers

John

 

PS - sorry, I meant to say that I have never argued for a thinner or thicker M body.  That is at the bottom of my wish list.  Having yet another M battery charger would discourage me.  Stupid, I know, but I already have an M charger (and 4 batteries), an M(240) charger (and two batteries) and an SL charger (and two batteries) - and my daughter has her X1 charger and two batteries.  Leica clearly doesn't give a toss about the environment ...

 

Ideally, I would have liked the EVF to be 4.4MP, with the same refresh rate and blackout as the SL.  I don't get Leica doing this again.  Then again, it's only an accessory ...

[Herr Barnack]

At first, I had myself convinced that I didn't want an M10. 

 

Then I read about the improved viewfinder, the bigger LCD screen and the new sensor that was designed specifically for the M10. 

 

Oh, crap - now I want one ... 

[Hardster]

Thanks for a great review Jono. Always enjoy the humour as well. This camera has me interested although the lack of a proper Bulb mode is disappointing.Looking forward to handling one.

 

I'm unfamiliar with the 'Sleep' on and off function on the M10? Is this new or something that already exists on the M240 or previous digital Ms? Does having this function 'off' allow a lag-less tripping of the shutter?

 

I am sometimes annoyed how long it takes to wake my MMv1 resulting in missed shots. Constantly have to touch the release to keep it awake.

[roverover]

Resolution is a whole separate issue. I still use my 18MP M9 often, but it is ultimately limited to what it can do and that causes problems. That is a whole other issue that is complicated and I won't bog down this discussion with.

 

Now, that is not my primary concern because the path that this system is seemingly going down is far more a concern, not being able to use it at all in the same way. If it were true that another model was bought out with a USB port then I wouldn't be here arguing, but judging on the info on Leica's website, I don't think another line is going to happen like people are talking about here. ie. a simple line and a full featured line.

 

The end use should not matter; professional, amateur, art, transpotting, slelfies, whatever. The function of it should matter. Reducing the function and usefulness of it should really matter particularly when people have built up a system around it and have been using it for the best part of a decade.

 

At its core, the reason I love this system is for the same reasons as you. Lenses which are incredible in a small and very flexible package. For me it is primarily about aesthetics, something that becomes an integral part of a photographers work and changing it is risky, especially when you rely on it for your living. If you get hired for something and then deliver something different, it is not good.

 

Believe me, I have searched far and wide for another system that replaces it but there isn't another one. You mention the S System, that was actually a serious possibility as the lenses have a similar look - but it does not replace some of the main reasons I use the M. Worse still, the S is in just as bad a state. On digiloyd recently it has been rumoured that Leica has killed that off too!

 

...you might consider trying to "evolve". If your system is 10 years old, perhaps you might consider giving something else a try now that your personal ideal connectivity option may have been left behind in the dust. Perhaps the "wifi" transfer option or a card reader will perform better than you might imagine. I have found that I generally excel when i need to get creative and find work arounds for obstacles in life. USB may be slowly dying off anyway, in fact, you can't get a usb port on any Apple laptop any longer.

I for one am going to buy the M10 camera and try it out for myself and if necessary, find work arounds or make adjustments and continue growing and learning. I make a LOT of photographs with my 240 and never knew there was an optional usb handgrip and have been using a card reader for 15 years.

There does seem to be a lot of whining about what the M10 is "not", the negative energy seems like such a waste, I am excited and happy to go with the Leica flow, i truly feel they know what they are doing.

....we can all make our own choices, i have learned it has been better for my life to accept change and evolve!  my .02

[michaelwj]

But the point is, it seems there will never be another M for someone that needs to tether. ... What Leica does best is abandon its users.

1st point you make. There only ever was one M that you could tether, it's never been something you could do with an M until 4 years ago. I would say that it's not exactly their core business but rather is was a step away from core business. Was the M ever really that good tethered? All I heard were complaints that it was miles behind the competition. It has been said by others, but I think it is clear that Leica want to move tethered shooting and video to the SL. You can still use your M lenses.

 

2nd point you make. WTF! Abandon users? Is that why the M10 supports with full functionality ALL M and LTM lenses ever made both by Leica and 3rd party lenses. No other camera company can say that - even the wonderful amazing F mount doesn't support all F mount lenses. I challenge you to name another mount where I can happily use their oldest lens with their newest body exactly as each was intended and the other way around. I will concede Leica left R uses out on a limb.

[ramarren]

No USB port, no access to a USB via a grip. This is game over. EOL for the M and professionals. Very, very, very unhappy.         

I can't say I know many professionals actually using the Leica M for USB tethered shooting. I know a ton of people who use Leica Ms for their work—either weddings, reportage, or site photography for real estate catalogs, etc—and not a one of them has ever used the USB port. Obviously, some people do ... you in particular ... but I suspect the new model's improved ISO capability is much more important to more of the pros using it than USB.

 

Perhaps there will be a more expensive model yet to come with the equivalent of a multifunction grip available. After all, the M10 is priced lower than the M typ 240 was...

[Mark Pope]

No USB port, no access to a USB via a grip. This is game over. EOL for the M and professionals. Very, very, very unhappy.         

Who uses the USB port on their M8/M9/M240?

 

I have never used the USB port on any digital camera that I've owned, from DSLRs to compacts.

If you want to do remote tethering, there's the wifi.

[sandymc]

@Andreas, thanks for all the pictures from the event.  Including Jono dodging the guys with white gloves.

 

@Jono, you didn't comment on how the M10 labels its files.  It looks like one SD card is supported, inserted from the bottom as always, so is the procedure for naming files also taken from the M240 firmware?  Is the battery the same as was used in the M9, or a new shape and connector configuration?

 

also, does the M10 write a DNG 1.4 (which can include lens-specific corrections for distortion and LCA) as the SL does, or the older style as the M240 does?  Something in Sean Reid's review makes me suspect that the files will be in the newer format.

 

scott

 

Scott,

 

The files I've seen are DNG 1.3

 

Curiously enough though, the DNG's I've seen have a DNG "Look table" in them, but unfortunately they've been "contaminated" by processing though Lightroom, so I can't be sure that was written by the camera. 

 

Anyone got a DNG that's not been messed with by an Adobe product????  

 

Sandy

[mikeamosau]

Forget USB. Wifi is future.

[roverover]

But the point is, it seems there will never be another M for someone that needs to tether. Not now and most likely not ever, even if the M does increase resolution for which I had held out hope for. Don't you see the difference? Dropping the connectivity and a core need for a professional who needs to tether is the last thing I would expect Leica to do being. You might say that's not the end of the world but if they took some feature that you needed as a bare minimum and you weren't able to use an M ever again after I think you'd be pretty pissed too. What Leica does best is abandon its users.

 

....really? when did tethering become a core need of a professional, a professional what?  ...i am sorry but this rant is sad. You go on to say "the best thing Leica does is abandon its users?"  WTF?   ...Frankly, with the serious state of affairs in the world today, it's difficult to even listen to this sort of adolescent drivel.  ...and why can't you ever use Your M again?  ....WHAT???

...if your biggest problem is the lack of a usb port on a product that you do NOT have to purchase, then consider yourself a very lucky human and try exhibiting a bit of gratitude instead of all that whimpering and whining.

I for one view the M10's release as an exciting event and I am looking forward to exploring the camera, flaws (if any) and all!

[Paul J]

1st point you make. There only ever was one M that you could tether, it's never been something you could do with an M until 4 years ago. I would say that it's not exactly their core business but rather is was a step away from core business. Was the M ever really that good tethered? All I heard were complaints that it was miles behind the competition. It has been said by others, but I think it is clear that Leica want to move tethered shooting and video to the SL. You can still use your M lenses.

 

2nd point you make. WTF! Abandon users? Is that why the M10 supports with full functionality ALL M and LTM lenses ever made both by Leica and 3rd party lenses. No other camera company can say that - even the wonderful amazing F mount doesn't support all F mount lenses. I challenge you to name another mount where I can happily use their oldest lens with their newest body exactly as each was intended and the other way around. I will concede Leica left R uses out on a limb.

 

 

1st point you make is wrong. The M9 tethers perfectly well. It's connection was rock solid and it got the job done. Yes you can still use lenses on the SL, sure, it's only another £5500! It does not have auto aperture and you have to focus erroneously with a stopped down lens with an evf in a dark studio.

 

2nd Point. Backwards compatibility of lenses sure is excellent and it's something I have been appreciative of. However abandoning users is whole other another thing. Lets talk about the R and now the S. Go read the various forums on what S users currently think on the matter!

[Paul J]

I can't say I know many professionals actually using the Leica M for USB tethered shooting. I know a ton of people who use Leica Ms for their work—either weddings, reportage, or site photography for real estate catalogs, etc—and not a one of them has ever used the USB port. Obviously, some people do ... you in particular ... but I suspect the new model's improved ISO capability is much more important to more of the pros using it than USB.

 

Perhaps there will be a more expensive model yet to come with the equivalent of a multifunction grip available. After all, the M10 is priced lower than the M typ 240 was...

 

 

Sorry, but all that says is you don't know many professionals who need it. It is a common and basic need for many, there are thousands and thousands of photographers who shoot tethered and while I'm sure people who shoot events and weddings will appreciate higher iso, I don't for what I do. This is a basic need for someone like me, for which there are a hell of a lot of us.

 

I really do hope there is a new M240 top model but I don't think it's going to happen.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Paul J]

Who uses the USB port on their M8/M9/M240?

 

I have never used the USB port on any digital camera that I've owned, from DSLRs to compacts.

If you want to do remote tethering, there's the wifi.

 

 

Good for you but I do. Wifi is not an option. Shoot 30 shots in a row and wait for the RAW appear over wifi - sure! Even Leica has said that wifi is too slow for tethered shooting, it is absolutely no solution.