Exodies Posted December 19, 2016 Share #481 Posted December 19, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's up to you if you want to give out prizes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 19, 2016 Posted December 19, 2016 Hi Exodies, Take a look here Leica M 10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jmahto Posted December 19, 2016 Share #482 Posted December 19, 2016 The biggest problem with the M240, or any of the M family, is you never know if your range finder focusing is a little off until it is too late. Using the EVF on the M is defeating the purpose of having a range finder camera in the first place. I know, been there, done that with the M8, M9 and M240. Never knowing if your focus mechanical mechanism was bumped or some other reason for it being off spot, until you get home and look at your out of focus photos, realizing it's too late. That's why I sold mine and got the SL. Easiest camera to use with M or R lenses and know your focusing is spot on. Well, that is certainly an issue. For me the solution is to check once in a while whether RF focusing has drifted. It is easily done using the LV. Edit: Also for critical work (macro, long lens etc.) I can use the EVF to do the focusing. I don't need added bulk of SL just to use M lenses. For people who don't mind the added bulk and may need AF now or later, SL is perfectly good choice though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 19, 2016 Share #483 Posted December 19, 2016 Constraints are often the greatest spur to creativity aren't they? Yet very often undervalued. I wonder whether there's an inverse correlation between the amount we spend on our gear and how creative we are in its use. I agree - this might not work for many, but it does for me. I know I take my best pictures when I'm thinking about the image, rather than fretting over the gear (or lost in menus). When I got my first SLR camera (FE), my father told me to get out and take lost of pictures - not worry about content, but get used to the feel of the camera, its settings and how it worked. Great advice, I think. The M cameras in their basic form are so intuitive (for me, none more so than the M60 and M-A); while having a different field of view may give you more options, as Robert Capa said, use your feet. I appreciate that is a little simplistic, but it does explain why I innately prefer primes, why I tend to leave particular lenses on particular M cameras and I can easily see the appeal of a camera like the X1D 50c with the 30mm lens on it, and 90mm in a pocket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 19, 2016 Share #484 Posted December 19, 2016 I agree - this might not work for many, but it does for me. I know I take my best pictures when I'm thinking about the image, rather than fretting over the gear (or lost in menus). You will have to think about getting the gear for sports, macro, portrait, street,landscape etc photography. Once you have the right tool it is easier to be be creative Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted December 19, 2016 Share #485 Posted December 19, 2016 You will have to think about getting the gear for sports, macro, portrait, street,landscape etc photography. Once you have the right tool it is easier to be be creative Another wild speculation that I think may contain a grain of truth: the more types of photography you try to cover the less accomplished you'll be at any of them. Again, artists, writers, scientists; many great creative people in so many walks of life have been almost obsessively single minded. It's as though being a well-rounded person of broad tastes and interests (and too many lenses!) is a handicap when it comes to high achievement. Well, I believe it is. I've often thought about what distinguishes great artists from dabblers, and it's very rarely their skill or even their imagination. I think it's their determination to do nothing but the one thing, over and over, never being satisfied, always needing to revisit the same subject or theme or endeavour. It's probably why people of restricted general ability often shine at one narrow thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted December 19, 2016 Share #486 Posted December 19, 2016 I know I take my best pictures when I'm thinking about the image, rather than fretting over the gear (or lost in menus). ... The M cameras in their basic form are so intuitive (for me, none more so than the M60 and M-A)... I could not agree more. The M, like the FM2 with which I learned photography are tools that just completely disappear in use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Black Posted December 20, 2016 Share #487 Posted December 20, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) The biggest problem with the M240, or any of the M family, is you never know if your range finder focusing is a little off until it is too late. Using the EVF on the M is defeating the purpose of having a range finder camera in the first place. I know, been there, done that with the M8, M9 and M240. Never knowing if your focus mechanical mechanism was bumped or some other reason for it being off spot, until you get home and look at your out of focus photos, realizing it's too late. That's why I sold mine and got the SL. Easiest camera to use with M or R lenses and know your focusing is spot on. The M9 seemed to get knocked out of alignment pretty easily, but the M-240 family has proven very robust (in my experience). I've not had an RF alignment issue with an array of M-240's, M-P 240's and M-246's over past 3'ish years. And the best part is, with the EVF (or Live View) it's quick & easy to test a new lens and make sure everything is in good alignment. In contrast, both my S2 and S-006 had to go Germany to get their OVF's collimated because of the OVF and sensor plane were not aligned. In both cases it was pretty evident with split-screen prism. Both cameras were CPO's from Leica dealers and Leica made it right both times, so this issues were resolved, but it was long turn around time. I get that these things can just be "luck of the draw", but given M-240's trouble-free history vs the S' spending ALOT of time in Germany, I'll take the M over the S. And for what's it worth, thus far my SL has been trouble free too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert E Posted December 20, 2016 Share #488 Posted December 20, 2016 A few have indicated how easy it is to check a M with the EVF to make sure your range finder is giving you sharp focus, and yes this is true. That's how I found mine was off depending on which lens I attached. My point is that this actually happens too often with the M series and often it's not noticed until too late, As we all know, unless it's a static building, it's hard to go back and recreate photos, especially "a moment in time" ones. So what do you do when you check and find the range finder is off, again. Unless you live in the same city as a Leica repair shop, you send off your camera and are without it. Or you continue using the VLF for all your focusing, thus the range finder is now a modified DSLR. When you look through the SL, you know instantly whether or not your expensive M lens is in focus at all times. It is such a superior system and not really all that larger now is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest )-( Posted December 20, 2016 Share #489 Posted December 20, 2016 Come on, the SL is a whopper! It's DSLR sized, and the lenses... Worrying about the M RF being out of alignment sounds like a 'just in case' rationale to me. There are many things that 'might' lead to out of focus pictures? A little extra DOF might be a prudent approach if it's a critical 'moment in time', and what's happening whilst one is zooming in on an EVF or chimping images on an LCD? You just line the little pictures up and press the button, M is easy! Don't bump it, it's expensive! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted December 20, 2016 Share #490 Posted December 20, 2016 Well, if the SL were off, you'd have to send it in too. Granted it's far more likely to have issues with a digital M, but I find the M240 RF to be more robust and accurate than any of its predecessors. Mine has been dead-on since purchase two and a half years ago. One M8.2 I bought new needed one calibration in 4 years, and that was in its first month of operation. A back-up M8.2, which I bought used following a dealer authorized service, hasn't had an issue in the 3 years since. S owners should be so fortunate. I love the M in large part for its RF and its unique way of seeing. The SL is fine machine....and far more flexible than an M...but apples and oranges VF-wise. All of its benefits still need to outweigh its TV screen-like viewing for me. Part of the appeal of the SL is the robust weather sealing, but that can only be maintained by using native lenses that, so far, are huge compared to M lenses. I know others feel differently.....like just about every forum topic.....including, not surprisingly, the M10. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
imants Posted December 20, 2016 Share #491 Posted December 20, 2016 Another wild speculation that I think may contain a grain of truth: the more types of photography you try to cover the less accomplished you'll be at any of them. Again, artists, writers, scientists; many great creative people in so many walks of life have been almost obsessively single minded. It's as though being a well-rounded person of broad tastes and interests (and too many lenses!) is a handicap when it comes to high achievement. Well, I believe it is. I've often thought about what distinguishes great artists from dabblers, and it's very rarely their skill or even their imagination. I think it's their determination to do nothing but the one thing, over and over, never being satisfied, always needing to revisit the same subject or theme or endeavour. It's probably why people of restricted general ability often shine at one narrow thing. Few of the greats in the arts were single minded most had a quite comprehensive outlook about society of their time past and what the future could possibly bring. No Renaissance painter strolled around with a tube of burnt sienna and a no.5 sable brush in order to create their work,they understood all aspects of their craft and that of others. No sculptor walked around with 1"flat cold chisel as his/her only arsenal, abstract artists didn't pinch their Dad.d 3' paintbrush and tin of flat white paint etc etc Sure some were obsessive compulsive but my no means were they narrow minded and closed to new ideas materials, equipment nor techniques. A person specializing in macro work needs specialist equipment just as a sports photographer's needs are different none are going to cut it with a Leica and a 28mm lens. Walking around with a Leica and 28mm lens will probably only make one adept at using 28mm lens in photography and that's about it ................though one would probably have to relearn most aspects of image making if they switch to a smartphone that has similar focal length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlindstrom Posted December 20, 2016 Share #492 Posted December 20, 2016 Will M10 be only thinner (than M240) or substantially lighter as well? Paired with 28 elmarit ASPH it will be a great hiking camera. These days small & light Leica with a 28mm for walking equals the Q (for me). Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted December 20, 2016 Share #493 Posted December 20, 2016 If it was only a matter of weight the M240s plus a 50 Elmarit or cron 35 takes a lot of beating. I typically carry the 35 on the body and either a 75 summarit 2.4 or 135 apo telyt when trekking. It all fits into a small belt pouch fixed to the hip belt on a back pack. What this gives me is the assurance that I have a file that can be processed as black and white or colour and which can be printed as big as I want. NOTHING else I've ever owned gives me this weight, bulk, functionality mix. Evidence? Check https://flickr.com/photos/63458818@N00/sets/72157675578813290 or https://flickr.com/photos/63458818@N00/sets/72157666503671631 The SL was bought with lots of hope and i'ts a lovely piece of kit but it's too big and I didn't enjoy the experience. The 5d3 is a great camera, but it's too big for my purposes - even with a prime like the 35 L 1.4 (which is massive anyway). The M240s is CLOSE to perfect but not quite the full cigar. If the M10 has some marginally weight advantages, better IQ and a truly useable EVF it will be another step down the road. Nothing's perfect in this fallen world. Agreed. But "better" has always been worth the effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 20, 2016 Share #494 Posted December 20, 2016 You will have to think about getting the gear for sports, macro, portrait, street,landscape etc photography. Once you have the right tool it is easier to be be creative But often the right tool is inherently restrictive. I've specialised in temperate underwater photography for over 30 years. In essence the two methods of working are macro or wide-angle. Within those there is variation but, as zooms are tricky to utilise due to optical constraints (few can be optimised at more than one focal length), once a decision has been made on an either/or wide/macro basis you are stuck with it. No changing lenses underwater. Creativity, though comes with understanding your subject matter and being able to use the right tool in the correct fashion to capture the image as you want it to be. The wrong tool hampers this and whilst I agree that the right tool eases creativity, I'd say that the right tool is more often than not one which is restrictive. On another point, I personally find that I work better with cameras which I like - ergonomically or whatever you want to call the interaction between photographer and equipment. This undoubtedly varies from photographer to photographer and for the type of photography undertaken and to some photographers is of great importance whilst to others is irrelevant. I know one successful photographer who knew very little about his cameras, so little that I once had to show him how to take a film back off a medium format film camera because he couldn't work out how it came off. I on the other hand work well with rangefinders although I'm not too bothered which model myself. I like simplicity and minimal clutter/accessories. Others like lots of buttons and loads of add ons. So be it. Each to their own. But having tried it I do not want to see an electronic view when taking pictures - to me this virtualises the world and there is enough of that about already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted December 20, 2016 Share #495 Posted December 20, 2016 ...I do not want to see an electronic view when taking pictures - to me this virtualises the world and there is enough of that about already. Completely agree. (and some astounding images on your website!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted December 20, 2016 Share #496 Posted December 20, 2016 Completely agree. (and some astounding images on your website!) Agreed too. Having tried the SL and the Sony, I decided to only use optical viewfinders, whether a rangefinder or SLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmuussoni Posted December 20, 2016 Share #497 Posted December 20, 2016 Removing the video is a strange decision for me. Now I am little bit worried M10 won't improve the bulb mode over M 240. It's biggest weakness for me. We shall see... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted December 20, 2016 Share #498 Posted December 20, 2016 Removing the video is a strange decision for me. Now I am little bit worried M10 won't improve the bulb mode over M 240. It's biggest weakness for me. We shall see... Indeed - there are plenty of improvements to be made to the M240 (bulb mode, long exposure noise reduction, start up speed, VF info and others) that are all incremental changes and not the bells and whistles that would upset some. My current view, waiting to be overturned when faced with a real product, is that it will take a big step change in IQ (which is not code for more pixels) for me to upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted December 20, 2016 Share #499 Posted December 20, 2016 The current frame lines are not electronically generated; rather they use the same mechanical structure from film Ms. The difference is that they are now illuminated by LEDs, not by a window. Jeff I am absolutely aware of that . But Leica could switch to an electronic generation of frame lines and additional information for the range finder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted December 20, 2016 Share #500 Posted December 20, 2016 Well, the SL to T adapter is small and perfectly formed - you really don't notice it, and the 6 bit coding is passed through seamlessly, so it's really not very different from shooting on an M mount (and you have the lens corrections which you would never have on a Sony . . . . I think a QL is a grand idea (ie a Q with an SL mount). What's more, Leica might even make it (I know nothing other than thinking it's a great idea). However, the chance of them making an EVF based camera with an M mount is vanishingly small (why would they do that?). Yes, a QL would be great, assuming that the sensor fully supports the M lenses. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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