johnbuckley Posted September 10, 2016 Share #1 Posted September 10, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) If the rumors are correct that there will not be a new M released at photokina (save for a titanium MP-240), I will be disappointed, but rather than be unhappy, we should think about what it means. Leica had been on a three-year refresh cycle for Ms, but then came 2015 with no new M, and the cycle extended. Surely there would be a new M at photokina? Apparently not, if the speculation is correct. So what are we to make of it? Well, in the last two years Leica has pleased many of us with the release of the Q and the SL. The SL opens the way not only to new system lenses, but also creates demand for lenses like the Noctilux which, incredible but unwieldy on the M, is delightful when used with a good EVF. The Q offers some the size and quality of the M with an EVF that's quite good, offset by the limitations of a fixed lens. These new cameras are creating new market opportunities for Leica and it is becoming more relevant as a company to a broader array of buyers who are visiting the wider array of Leica Stores and Boutiques around the world. But where does this leave the M, which has not been refreshed since 2012/2013 - long, long time in the technology/camera market? I choose to believe that no new M this year means: 1) that the classic M is seen even by Leica as a specialty camera, the exemplar of The Essentials, that is as close to its own perfection in its current form as they are capable of making it right now, and 2) that they view other systems - Q, SL, TL, possibly X - as places to innovate with EVFs and other non-rangefinder technologies. The M is still the flagship, but it is a classic that is close to its perfect form now, it's limitations part of what makes it so special, something not to messed with and souped up, as market demands are being addressed elsewhere. (In fact, over the past four years, Leica has surprised and delighted us by taking away things from the modern M: color, LCDs, etc.) What this means to me personally is that I should cherish the MP-240 I shoot as the incredible camera it is, that it doesn't fundamentally need an upgrade, that the SL I bought fills needs beyond what the M offers, and I should be well satisfied with what I have: great cameras utilizing great M lenses. And if we are, in fact surprised by a new M with, oh, 30+ megapixels etc. in the weeks ahead, great. But in the meantime, we should be satisfied that the current M is a great camera, great system, and if you are dissatisfied with it, Leica is offering other options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 10, 2016 Posted September 10, 2016 Hi johnbuckley, Take a look here On The Meaning And Implications Of No New M At Photokina. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #2 Posted September 10, 2016 There is no deep, hidden meaning behind this and the implications are clear: If the next M is not introduced at photokina, it will be introduced at a later date. How much later remains to be seen. Leica has chosen to introduce the next M at the time they believe is the right time; they no longer bow to a schedule imposed by trade fairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted September 10, 2016 There is no deep, hidden meaning behind this and the implications are clear: If the next M is not introduced at photokina, it will be introduced at a later date. How much later remains to be seen.Leica has chosen to introduce the next M at the time they believe is the right time; they no longer bow to a schedule imposed by trade fairs.They also no longer bow to a three-year upgrade cycle. Now perhaps, Michael, you know that there will be some post-photokina release. But the fact that Leica is not announcing a new M at photokina, to me at least, is revelatory of different priorities than they had as recently as 2012. I don't have a problem with their new seeming priorities - SL, Q, TL. But to me it is meaningful that with so much innovation and energy going on at Leica, the M is now on what seems to be at least a 4+ year announcement cycle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share #4 Posted September 10, 2016 And by the way, they weren't bound by trade fairs when they announced the M9. They did seem to be bound by numerology, releasing it on 9/9/09! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #5 Posted September 10, 2016 I thought Photokina is being held between 20-25 September, so we should wait and see, shouldn't we. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted September 10, 2016 Share #6 Posted September 10, 2016 I was hoping for a new M with improved EVF and even better sensor for low light and I was kind of disappointed that there will not be new M (in sept). Since I am going to be using my M240 for some more time, I dusted off my EVF and took some pictures using my R lenses. I had forgotten how easy it is to use EVF, however old tech it is. Yes, it is old tech but is perfectly usable for my usage. Which is deliberate and slow shooting. The technical quality of pictures was excellent. Same with high ISO. I shot some pictures with ISO 1600 and 3200 and loved the colors and low noise. Yes, it is worse than ISO 200 but I am happy with this "limitation". In a "normal lit" night time living room I have no problem with fast glass. In comparison, my M9's high ISO capability was slightly limiting, but not M240. Instead of feeling bad and complaining about limitations of current M, I think it is best to go ahead and shoot and enjoy. I guess that is why most of us bought M. For sheer pleasure of photography. Don't we. Now I am not that disappointed. I will still welcome an improved M down the road and in the meantime continue to enjoy my current M which is the best camera for me in today's market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted September 10, 2016 Share #7 Posted September 10, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I must ask, because I may not fully comprehend what is meant by "new M:" Is there some aspect of the M-D that disqualifies it as a new M? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 10, 2016 Share #8 Posted September 10, 2016 The M8 was a big leap for Leica, introducing a digital M. The M9 was also a big step forward, giving us a full frame digital M. The M240 was mostly about improving the quality, better sensor, better quality in the mechanics of the rangefinder. The big difference from the M9 was the ability to ad a EVF, but the camera it self was more about making a better version of the predecessor. So, for the next M, what is there to expect, assuming in will still be a rangefinder camera with optical rangefinder? A new iteration of improved quality and improved sensor and electronics, but no big steps as the M8 and the M9 was. So, maybe no rush to release such a camera, with so many other cameras in the pipe? Unless one believe in Santa Claus and expects a dslr behaving camera in a range finder body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share #9 Posted September 10, 2016 The M8 was a big leap for Leica, introducing a digital M. The M9 was also a big step forward, giving us a full frame digital M. The M240 was mostly about improving the quality, better sensor, better quality in the mechanics of the rangefinder. The big difference from the M9 was the ability to ad a EVF, but the camera it self was more about making a better version of the predecessor. So, for the next M, what is there to expect, assuming in will still be a rangefinder camera with optical rangefinder? A new iteration of improved quality and improved sensor and electronics, but no big steps as the M8 and the M9 was. So, maybe no rush to release such a camera, with so many other cameras in the pipe? Unless one believe in Santa Claus and expects a dslr behaving camera in a range finder body. Yes, I think that was exactly my point! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #10 Posted September 10, 2016 I must ask, because I may not fully comprehend what is meant by "new M:" Is there some aspect of the M-D that disqualifies it as a new M? ‘New M’ in this context means ‘new hardware platform’. There was the M8/M9 platform that was superceded by the M (Typ 240). The M (Typ 240), M-P, M Monochrom (Typ 246), and M-D (Typ 262) all share the same hardware platform with relatively minor modifications. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #11 Posted September 10, 2016 And by the way, they weren't bound by trade fairs when they announced the M9. They did seem to be bound by numerology, releasing it on 9/9/09! 2009 was not a photokina year so they decided to have a bit of fun with the announcement date. I think the photokina was the only trade fair that Leica took that seriously anyway. And whether there will be another photokina after this year’s fair, nobody really knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #12 Posted September 10, 2016 I thought Photokina is being held between 20-25 September, so we should wait and see, shouldn't we. You can come to terms with ‘no new M at photokina’ now or have your expectations busted on 20 September. But as I said there is no need to despair; ‘no new M at photokina’ doesn’t imply ‘no new M’. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted September 10, 2016 Share #13 Posted September 10, 2016 I must ask, because I may not fully comprehend what is meant by "new M:" Is there some aspect of the M-D that disqualifies it as a new M? The only thing new about the M-D is a small change in the user interface (removal of LCD). It is, to an M240 or M262, what a Leica MDa (viewfinderless scientific body) was to a Leica M4. A sidestep at best, and some (not all) would say a step backwards. It won't produce sharper pictures, or pictures in dimmer light, or otherwise enhance what a photographer can do with it. Put an M262 picture and an M-D picture side by side, and there will be no difference. Or one can take mjh's approach (we're cross-posting) - the underlying platform. I would submit that that is an "incomplete" parameter, however - the M9 was a huge leap over the M8 in terms of what it did photographically, even if it used the same batteries and non-sensor electronics and shutter and bottom latch, etc. (I say that as a major user of a coupled 21 f/2.8 (or faster) lens - for which there was no equivalent on the M8). _________ On John's original point: We are reaching at least a temporary plateau in hardware technology, throughout the tech industry. Most advances these days are in software (apps), or in the addition of bells and whistles (existing tech like wi-fi - in a new application). Within digital imaging, there is yet another plateau, since miniaturization does not help much if the size of the sensor (24 x 36) has to remain the same. "Moore's Law" can't help much, with cameras. One can cram in more pixels on a sensor, but not without a price in image quality other than raw resolution (check out Canon users' problems with dynamic range and ISO performance on the 50-Mpixel 5D variants). You can look at the "what I want in the next M" threads, and see that many of the wishes are mutually exclusive - unless there are some major breakthroughs in hardware industry-wide, and from Leica's own suppliers. For the time being, there is not a lot of scope for Leica to produce "a new M" that is much more than cosmetic changes. And doesn't step on the desires of one part of the market in order to fulfill the desires of another part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 10, 2016 Share #14 Posted September 10, 2016 I think it would mean that they aren't ready to introduce it yet. Not a big deal, considering that every digital M since the M8 has been capable of producing excellent files suitable for a disciplined print workflow....at least for me. I didn't need the M240 to demonstrate that. But I do value the M240 as the best built, most reliable (so far) and most quiet digital M platform for 'traditional' RF use, which is my way of using it. The rest is gravy....as long as it doesn't get in the way. I'll assess the new M in the same way as the others based on my style, needs and preferences. If it's an entirely new platform, I'll probably wait for the dust to settle regarding any potential bugs or issues. That strategy has worked for me, passing on the first generation M8, buying the M8.2, skipping the first full frame M9, and buying the M240. No rush. And if this means Leica is taking more time to ensure reliability and bug-free release (see Leica S lens threads)....good for them...and for us. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 10, 2016 Share #15 Posted September 10, 2016 (...)The M240 was mostly about improving the quality, better sensor, better quality in the mechanics of the rangefinder. The big difference from the M9 was the ability to ad a EVF, but the camera it self was more about making a better version of the predecessor. (....) The M (Typ 240) is practically a newly from the ground up designed camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted September 10, 2016 Share #16 Posted September 10, 2016 What 3 year cycle? The M8 was announced in 2006, the M9 in 2009 and the M240 in 2012, although not widely available till getting on for a year later. That is, at best, a history of two cycles. On such foundations are essential truths established. By the time the M240 was announced, I was getting ready for it: the embarrassing rear screen, the shutter noise and the limited ISO range were too irritating. At the moment, I could think of incremental improvements to the M240, but broadly I'm happy with it. So I agree with the OP. Of course, if they came up with, shall we say, a QL, with small L-mount lenses matched to a small integrated EVF body, well I'm as open to seduction as anyone else, but I doubt I'd sell my M for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 10, 2016 Share #17 Posted September 10, 2016 You must mean the SL ;-) The M (Typ 240) is practically a newly from the ground up designed camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 10, 2016 Share #18 Posted September 10, 2016 He doesn't; even the construction of the camera frame of the Typ 240 is different from the previous model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 10, 2016 Share #19 Posted September 10, 2016 The M (Typ 240) is practically a newly from the ground up designed camera. Indeed it is. With a new case, new baseplate, new rangefinder, new sensor technology, new electronics with a new CPU, new display, new battery, new shutter speed dial etc. etc. one would be hard pressed to name a component the M (Typ 240) shares with the M9. Well, the mount is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adli Posted September 10, 2016 Share #20 Posted September 10, 2016 I did understand what he meant, but it is still based on the same design as the M3, a optical rangefinder camera with an M mount and a distinctive form factor. So calling it a 'newly from the ground up designed camera' is exaggerating a bit. It is more re-engineering of a known design. But I guess we are getting close to splitting hairs now He doesn't; even the construction of the camera frame of the Typ 240 is different from the previous model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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