IkarusJohn Posted March 15, 2016 Share #1 Posted March 15, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have this flash sitting in my checkout box at B&H. I'm not big on flash, and when I use one I like everything automated (I know). I've never felt the need for flash on my M cameras, but I can see they might be useful with the SL. There is pitifully little on the Leica website. Anyone have any information or insights? There are a couple of threads on the German forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 Hi IkarusJohn, Take a look here SF64. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ramarren Posted March 15, 2016 Share #2 Posted March 15, 2016 The SF64 is brand new and not quite released yet; the instruction manual is not yet available to download. Any other information about it will be just hearsay and speculation at this point. That said, there are a few threads on SL flash issues and limitations with the other newly introduced flash unit, the SF40, and I wouldn't imagine that the SF64 will be much different until they update the SL's firmware since the flash control protocol should be identical. Not sure why you feel that a flash might be more useful with the SL than it is with the M. I rarely use flash with either, but my frequency of use is not terribly different between the two cameras. I use a flash mostly when I'm doing tabletop work, and almost always operate it 100% manually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted March 15, 2016 Share #3 Posted March 15, 2016 There was a SF64 for sale at La Maison du Leica in Paris on Friday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
忘不了 Posted March 15, 2016 Share #4 Posted March 15, 2016 Flash technology is too bad, my B1 trigger can be used in the 1.1 firmware, the 1.2 firmware has failed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share #5 Posted March 15, 2016 Not sure why you feel that a flash might be more useful with the SL than it is with the M. I rarely use flash with either, but my frequency of use is not terribly different between the two cameras. I use a flash mostly when I'm doing tabletop work, and almost always operate it 100% manually. Let's see - the SL is the most automated camera I have - AF & zoom primarily. So, being able to fill in flash subjects in circumstances has appeal. Situations which spring to mind are outdoor settings where faces are in shadow, paragliders taken from below, people walking in the bush etc. When you think about it, there are many such situations where lighting your subject against a dark background helps. I can't imagine wanting to use a flash with my M Edition 60, Monochrom or either film camera. Flash just feels inconsistent with the way I use those cameras, and those situations where I would want to use flash - rare as that may be. I'm sure there's no logic to it, but having selected a camera without live view, review or in fact any LCD, adding a flash doesn't fit the minimalist approach I have adopted for those cameras. I understand the SF64 is new, but apparently some members have tried it. Similarly, there are many here who have used flash more than me, so I was hoping to get the benefit of their thoughts on it. Those comments could be helpful, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 15, 2016 Share #6 Posted March 15, 2016 The SL is a fantastic platform for portraiture with fill flash. You get TTL viewing, high quality post-shot review of the pictures, high speed sync with the right flash guns, fast AF and burst modes, etc. I posted an example a few days ago where I did fill flash with the SL using an old SF20 in A mode: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/uploads/monthly_03_2016/post-2714-0-16039900-1457162127.jpg The SF20 doesn't do TTL with the SL. But since I could quickly review my shots and adjust, the absence of TTL wasn't a big issue. The main motivation for buying something like the SF64 would be the higher guide numbers and bounce / swivel head, etc. However, at present there seems to be firmware issues affecting flash use with the SL. I experienced some of the issues myself and they are a bit of a nuisance, but I do expect them to be fixed sooner or later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted March 15, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm less bothered about firmware updates. My immediate question is whether it's worth getting the SF64, or if the smaller SF40 will do the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 15, 2016 Share #8 Posted March 15, 2016 TTL flash is seriously broken on the SL. There are significant issues in A and P mode on the SL with TTL flash and in M and T modes (all modes actually) exposure preview is disabled, making blending fill light near impossible. I'd wait until Leica show they can fix the TTL flash in the SL before purchasing a SF64. I would think the SF40 is not powerful enough to light a paraglider unless a hospital visit is imminent. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 15, 2016 Share #9 Posted March 15, 2016 The SF 40 looks to me to be more primitive than the SF 20/24 in terms of controls and display of information, though it's TTL mode works with the SL? Personally I prefer to have a compact flash like the 20/24 for travels plus s fully loaded unit like the 64 for portrsit sessions. The 64 is going to weigh a bit with batteries. So long as I'm carrying a camera bag the 20 is always with me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted March 15, 2016 Share #10 Posted March 15, 2016 Let's see - the SL is the most automated camera I have - AF & zoom primarily. So, being able to fill in flash subjects in circumstances has appeal. Situations which spring to mind are outdoor settings where faces are in shadow, paragliders taken from below, people walking in the bush etc. When you think about it, there are many such situations where lighting your subject against a dark background helps. I can't imagine wanting to use a flash with my M Edition 60, Monochrom or either film camera. Flash just feels inconsistent with the way I use those cameras, and those situations where I would want to use flash - rare as that may be. I'm sure there's no logic to it, but having selected a camera without live view, review or in fact any LCD, adding a flash doesn't fit the minimalist approach I have adopted for those cameras. I understand the SF64 is new, but apparently some members have tried it. Similarly, there are many here who have used flash more than me, so I was hoping to get the benefit of their thoughts on it. Those comments could be helpful, no? Those are all the same situations where I would use a flash with any camera... When I used a dedicated TTL flash, I use it the old-fashioned, simple way: I set the camera to manual exposure, set the ISO, working aperture, and shutter speed I want for the ambient light, and let the TTL flash unit adjust output to suit the scene—using FEC to adjust the amount of flash illumination. That seems to work properly with nearly any TTL flash unit. Most of the more automated modes and settings have always just baffled me and not given me consistent results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #11 Posted March 15, 2016 IAnyone have any information or insights? SF 64 is released in Germany, I'm still using it for a week (firmware 1.1). It's working fine in TTL and M mode up to 1/250. It's working fine in M HSS as well. TTL HSS is working inside. I didn't get any well balanced exposure outside by TTL HSS. Remote mode means, remote SF 64 will be triggered in M mode only! No TTL mode, no setting of the guide number by the first flash. GN 64 ( metering system) is valid in 200mm zoom mode only. I measured GN 24 (metering system, 35mm, 100 ASA) comparable to GN 35 of a SB 800 of Nikon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 15, 2016 Share #12 Posted March 15, 2016 The SF 40 looks to me to be more primitive than the SF 20/24 in terms of controls and display of information, though it's TTL mode works with the SL? Personally I prefer to have a compact flash like the 20/24 for travels plus s fully loaded unit like the 64 for portrsit sessions. The 64 is going to weigh a bit with batteries. So long as I'm carrying a camera bag the 20 is always with me. I think the SF40 is vastly superior to the discontinued SF20 and SF24. Neither has tilt or swivel for bounce. Neither has on flash controls for FEC. The SF24 takes hugely expensive CR2 batteries. The controls on the SF40 are analogue but simple to control. It takes 4x AA batteries, has fast recycle times and far more power than the SF20/24. The SF40 has HSS. The Sf40 is fabulous on the M system. When Leica get around to fixing the SL's huge TTL flas issues, it'll be a good flash for it as well. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 15, 2016 Share #13 Posted March 15, 2016 Not disputing the tilt/swivel, HSS or higher guide number of the SF 40. The SF 20/24 were designed to be the matching compact flash for the M6 TTL so advanced flash photography was not an intended application. However, in terms of controls and display I do think the SF 20 / 24 are better in the following ways: - The SF 20 / 24 have on-flash exposure compensation and manual flash power reduction controls like the SF 40. These are the only on-flash controls for the SF 40 although the SF 20 / 24 have a lot more. - The SF 20 / 24 allows electronic communication of ISO, aperture and flash exposure compensation values with cameras that support its protocol, but it also allows you to dial these values in manually should the camera not support it. Therefore you can use the flash in A mode with any camera (TTL Leica, pre-TTL Leica, a purely mechanical Leica, or any camera from another brand). The SF 40 however depends on the camera to communicate these values and doesn't allow manual entry. So really you can only use it with a recent Leica. And it may not work with a future Leica should the communication protocol change again. - The SF 20 / 24 has on-flash display for the current ISO and aperture values. It also shows you the flash coverage distance, in switchable feet or meters automatically calculated off your ISO and aperture values and exposure compensation. The display has a back-lit mode for dark environments. The SF 40 has none of these. So bottom line is, the SF 40 is a more capable flash than the SF 20 / 24 when used with a recent Leica supporting its communication protocol. Its controls and display are basically done through the camera body rather than on the flash. When used with any other camera, however, it's basically down to M mode only and its M mode implementation is crude. On the other hand, when used with an unsupported camera the SF 20 / 24 still offers a high degree of automation (eg. A mode works completely, and the M mode is more capable than the SF 40's) and has a very intuitive display. If you still shoot older Leicas like me (any analog Leica, the DMR/M8/M8.2/M9/X1/X2) then you are out of luck with the SF40. On the other hand I have had the SF 20 for 16 years and I've used it with the M6 classic, M6 TTL, R6.2, R8, R9, DMR, M8, M8.2, and X1 successfully. With the SL it also works if I disable the electronic communication altogether (to bypass the firmware bugs). Nevertheless I'm very tempted by the SF 64 and I think it will complement the SL really when I need to do fancier things than the SF 20 can support. I think the SF40 is vastly superior to the discontinued SF20 and SF24. Neither has tilt or swivel for bounce. Neither has on flash controls for FEC. The SF24 takes hugely expensive CR2 batteries. The controls on the SF40 are analogue but simple to control. It takes 4x AA batteries, has fast recycle times and far more power than the SF20/24. The SF40 has HSS. The Sf40 is fabulous on the M system. When Leica get around to fixing the SL's huge TTL flas issues, it'll be a good flash for it as well. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpclee Posted March 15, 2016 Share #14 Posted March 15, 2016 Do you mean "indoors" and "outdoors" when you say "inside" and "outside"? Guide number of 24 is surprisingly little for a flash of this size! SF 64 is released in Germany, I'm still using it for a week (firmware 1.1). It's working fine in TTL and M mode up to 1/250. It's working fine in M HSS as well. TTL HSS is working inside. I didn't get any well balanced exposure outside by TTL HSS. Remote mode means, remote SF 64 will be triggered in M mode only! No TTL mode, no setting of the guide number by the first flash. GN 64 ( metering system) is valid in 200mm zoom mode only. I measured GN 24 (metering system, 35mm, 100 ASA) comparable to GN 35 of a SB 800 of Nikon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #15 Posted March 15, 2016 Do you mean "indoors" and "outdoors" when you say "inside" and "outside"? Yes. Sorry for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #16 Posted March 15, 2016 Some examples, f=26mm: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/30; f/5.0; A mode; auto ISO=80; no flash Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/30; f/5.0; A mode; auto ISO=80; no flash ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258020-sf64/?do=findComment&comment=3008118'>More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #17 Posted March 15, 2016 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/60; f/5.0; A mode; auto ISO= 50; SF 64 TTL Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/60; f/5.0; A mode; auto ISO= 50; SF 64 TTL ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258020-sf64/?do=findComment&comment=3008119'>More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #18 Posted March 15, 2016 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/500; f/2.9; T mode; auto ISO= 50; SF 64 TTL HSS Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1/500; f/2.9; T mode; auto ISO= 50; SF 64 TTL HSS ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/258020-sf64/?do=findComment&comment=3008120'>More sharing options...
Nikus Posted March 15, 2016 Share #19 Posted March 15, 2016 Some more examples here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257865-sf-64-an-der-sl-eure-erfahrungen/?p=3005350 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 15, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted March 15, 2016 I think the SF40 is vastly superior to the discontinued SF20 and SF24. Neither has tilt or swivel for bounce. Neither has on flash controls for FEC. The SF24 takes hugely expensive CR2 batteries. The controls on the SF40 are analogue but simple to control. It takes 4x AA batteries, has fast recycle times and far more power than the SF20/24. The SF40 has HSS. The Sf40 is fabulous on the M system. When Leica get around to fixing the SL's huge TTL flas issues, it'll be a good flash for it as well. Gordon And that's what I'm struggling with, really. SF40 (compact) or SF64 (more capable, but bigger) I suspect I'm more likely to use the SF40, but it would be good to understand the benefits of each a little better. I'm only intending to use this flash on the SL (though M Edition 60 and Moonochrom are possibilities, I guess). I won't be using this flash on non-Leica cameras (I don't have any, apart from my SWC) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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