APO-Summicron as a macro lens

[bencoyote]

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I know that the Macro-Adapter-M was designed to work with the Macro-Elmar-M f/4 collapsible lens which is evidently a great lens especially for travel. 

 

I've had the Macro-Adapter for a while and tried using it with both of my other lenses a 28cron and a 50lux and generally found Macro difficult to the point of near impossibility with them. I basically gave up on using the M for any macro.

 

I just got the 90mm APO-Summicron-M a couple of weeks ago and a post on another forum prompted me to dig out the macro adapter and try it with my new 90.

 

It seemed notably easier than using the 50 or the 28 with the macro adapter? Any idea why that may be? My current best guesses are:

a) It is heavier and therefore has more inertia than the other two lenses which takes more shake out of my hands.

With wider lenses you need to get closer to fill the frame, closer reduces your absolute depth of field and makes focusing more challenging but then again telephoto lenses have a narrower depth of field.

c) It has been several months since I last tried macro with the M and I might just be better with the M now.

 

My biggest question though is with regards to minimum focal distance. 

Without the adapter the minimum focal distance of the Macro-Elmar is 0.8m while the APO-Summicron is 1m

With the adapter according to B&H the Macro-Elmar's minimum focal distance is .41m. The thing that really surprised me is I just tried the APO-Summicron and the minimum focal distance that I measured is 0.3m. This is with the macro adapter fully extended.

 

I cannot explain that except by assuming that B&H is wrong. Why would the minimum FD of a lens with a longer minimum focal distance be shorter when used with an adapter? Is that 0.41m for the Macro-Elmar accurate? I was measuring from the focal point to the white line on the top of the camera.

 

Has anyone else tried using the 90mm APO-Summicron-M for macro instead of the Macro-Elmar-M? Any thoughts?

 

Lastly, I've heard people talk about differences in how different lenses render. I don't have enough experience with different lenses of the same focal distance to really know what people are talking about first hand but there seems to be something different about how the 90mm APO-Summicron looks vs my 50mm Summilux but I can't really put my finger on what it is. Is it just the focal length, is it my imagination, or is there something actually subtle but different about the look of pictures coming from these lenses?

Edited January 13, 2016 by bencoyote

[Rolleiflex83]

With extension, the new magnification is equal to the old + extension mag.; extension mag. Is simply the length of the extension divided by the focal length. I suspect with the macro adapter, you are at or beyond 1:1 with 28 and 50 that the DOF becomes too thin to be a real problem. Furthermore, some lenses don't cope very well when operating outside of the normal distance.

[hoppyman]

Hi. This is more general comment about the close up photography. I did have the previous version of the Macro Elmar M 90 with its close up attachment and the angle finder. In your post you mention 'takes more shake out of my hands'. I think that reliable accurate focus with any macro lens is very difficult unless you use sturdy support like a good tripod. 
With the extra magnification of the angle finder, I found the range finder focus to work very well. If you have the M (typ 240) you might also like to try using the live view.

Here is an image that I shared previously when I was using that equipment about 5 years ago.
http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/124448398

[jmahto]

This is what I shot using 90 macro elmar M (without any extension) at the minimal focus distance. The RF focusing was not reliable and I had to switch on LV and move the camera back and forth to get the petals in focus.

 

https://flic.kr/p/sYiaCv

[Leicaiste]

The Macro Adapter is great with the Summicron 75/2 Apo.

[bencoyote]

Hi. This is more general comment about the close up photography. I did have the previous version of the Macro Elmar M 90 with its close up attachment and the angle finder. In your post you mention 'takes more shake out of my hands'. I think that reliable accurate focus with any macro lens is very difficult unless you use sturdy support like a good tripod. 

With the extra magnification of the angle finder, I found the range finder focus to work very well. If you have the M (typ 240) you might also like to try using the live view.

Here is an image that I shared previously when I was using that equipment about 5 years ago.

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/124448398

 

Well done!

 

Despite my recent modest success with the 90mm APO-Summicron-M, I do believe that macro is best done with camera that can do continuous auto focus. It isn't just me and my hand shake which is pretty minimal, it is also my subject which isn't always completely still. e.g. a flower may move a few mm due to wind. So I'll probably get the TL macro lens when it comes out.

 

Given a bit of work with live view and focus peaking, I can get a good shot after a couple of tries. It is just that the level of effort required can be more than the value of the shot to me. Obviously, I need more practice. Springtime is just around the corner flowers and bugs!  ;-) 

[Steve Ash]

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The Macro Adapter is great with the Summicron 75/2 Apo.

It would be nice to see some examples

[Joshua Lowe]

I've seen some of Jono Slack's lovely photos taken with the Nocitulux on the macro adapter.  I'm curious to see similar photos made with the APO 50.

[hoppyman]

Well done!

 

Despite my recent modest success with the 90mm APO-Summicron-M, I do believe that macro is best done with camera that can do continuous auto focus. It isn't just me and my hand shake which is pretty minimal, it is also my subject which isn't always completely still. e.g. a flower may move a few mm due to wind. So I'll probably get the TL macro lens when it comes out.

 

Given a bit of work with live view and focus peaking, I can get a good shot after a couple of tries. It is just that the level of effort required can be more than the value of the shot to me. Obviously, I need more practice. Springtime is just around the corner flowers and bugs!  ;-) 

Oh I cant imagine how any kind of auto focus would work well for macro images. That sounds like quite a challenge that you have set yourself.  Even using the single spot AF point in the S system in portraiture for example, I'll ideally want the catchlight on the eye as the sharpest point, not the eyelashes in front and AF will not discriminate like that.

Well the SL and some future macro design for that may be in your future perhaps. I haven't read about any proposed design there even in planning as yet though.

 

Here's the APO Summicron M 75 ASPH un-cropped, minimum focus distance and wide open. Without any adapter its magnification is actually slightly larger than the 90 at its closer minimum focus distance.

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/143740345

 

And a cropped one stopped well down that wild iris would only be about 15mm in diameter.

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/130983354

 

[bencoyote]

Oh I cant imagine how any kind of auto focus would work well for macro images. That sounds like quite a challenge that you have set yourself.  Even using the single spot AF point in the S system in portraiture for example, I'll ideally want the catchlight on the eye as the sharpest point, not the eyelashes in front and AF will not discriminate like that.

Well the SL and some future macro design for that may be in your future perhaps. I haven't read about any proposed design there even in planning as yet though.

 

I don't know about that. Have you used a camera with modern CAF and a macro lens? The S with its large sensor would be the opposite direction than I would be going. Macro is where small sensors are kind of nice because they give better depth of field.

 

I don't claim any of these to be amazing shots but rather more like my personal field guide for the flowers that I've seen near my house so that I can quickly identify them the next year. Most of these were taken with an Olympus E-M1 and the Olympus 60mm macro f/2.8. That is the camera that I most want to get rid of. I don't like it, I've never liked it but honestly it is great for this. None of these were that hard. This was all hand held and mostly shot between f/8 and f/11. I hoped to do the same on backpack trips where I only take my M but was surprised at how challenging it was going to FF MF and until just a couple of weeks ago my longest lens was a 50mm lux.

 

This spring I'll practice hard with the M and macro adapter and probably the 90 APO-Summicron and see what I can pull off.

 

I like the M it is the no-excuses camera. If the picture isn't good, it is my fault, not the camera, not the lens, my fault. If I can't take a particular kind of picture, like those flower shots, I've got to man up and become a better photographer. However, CAF makes it SOOOOO much easier.

 

https://goo.gl/photos/s9eD2K775wStVwWA9 

Edited January 15, 2016 by bencoyote

[hoppyman]

I agree its not too difficult to make some nice flower images with whatever camera system. Increasing practical depth of field is certainly going to assist. Your link doesn't work for me, sorry. 

 

Yes I have had that EM-1 and other four thirds cameras plus APSc and full frame Nikons. Servo auto focus  (AFC) of course just means that the shutter release will still operate whether the camera thinks it is focussed or not. So DoF is what is working for you there. If you get the results that work for you then obviously it is a perfectly suitable method for you with that camera.

 

I'm just limiting my examples to Leica products of course.  These ones were all with that old model Macro Elmar M 90 on the M9
http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/123125360

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/128264662

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/128531434

http://www.pbase.com/hoppyman/image/128264663

 

Edited January 15, 2016 by hoppyman

[anickpick]

"The thing that really surprised me is I just tried the APO-Summicron and the minimum focal distance that I measured is 0.3m."

 

Did you measure from the camera (sensor) to the object or from the top of the lens?

[wattsy]

My biggest question though is with regards to minimum focal distance. 

Without the adapter the minimum focal distance of the Macro-Elmar is 0.8m while the APO-Summicron is 1m

With the adapter according to B&H the Macro-Elmar's minimum focal distance is .41m. The thing that really surprised me is I just tried the APO-Summicron and the minimum focal distance that I measured is 0.3m. This is with the macro adapter fully extended.

 

I cannot explain that except by assuming that B&H is wrong. Why would the minimum FD of a lens with a longer minimum focal distance be shorter when used with an adapter?

 

The adaptor is a glorified extension tube. Any lens when used on an extension tube will allow you to focus closer (in the process losing the ability to focus to infinity or indeed anywhere much beyond the close range). The significance of the 90 Macro Elmar is that it has been optically designed to work well in that range (not all lenses are going to be as good) and, when used with the goggled macro adaptor (the previous version), it remains RF coupled and is thus fully usable on film and digital bodies without live view.

[EoinC]

I've seen some of Jono Slack's lovely photos taken with the Nocitulux on the macro adapter.  I'm curious to see similar photos made with the APO 50.

I haven't seen Jono's macro photo's, Joshua, but these are hand-held tests using the Apo 50mm Summicron with the Macro-Adaptor on a MM246...

a002 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

a001 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

a003 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

a001 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

Edited March 3, 2016 by EoinC

[Joshua Lowe]

Thank you!  Those looks great.

[EoinC]

Thanks, Joshua. I haven't actually used it since then (which is probably about August last year), so I'll try and find it this weekend and shoot something else.

 

Cheers,

Eoin

[EoinC]

Thanks, Joshua. I haven't actually used it since then (which is probably about August last year), so I'll try and find it this weekend and shoot something else.

 

Cheers,

Eoin

Here are some nonsensical and non-artistic shots with the Apo 50 / Macro-adapter combination...

a001 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

At closest FD...

a002 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

At closest FD...

a003 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

 

And at 50mm w/o macro-adapter...

a004 by Eoin Christie, on Flickr

[luchoperez]

is it posible to use apo cron 90 as macro for film scanning?

[tommonego@gmail.com]

Film digitizing with a camera is take a picture of the film for digitizing not scanning. Just a quibble I have with the terminology. It is best to use a flat field or macro lens for digitizing film, as the film is flat and most lenses are curved field. But the longer a lens gets the flatter its field. You may be able to get by with the 90 Summicron at a small aperture say f8 or f11. I wouldn't do this unless you are looking through the lens say with a Visoflex EVF, to line up the negative on the frame. Then there is the problem of how to get 1:1 for digitizing film on an M. I use my CL on an old copy stand I have from my pro days, does a decent job, the lens is a Schneider Componon 80 f4, a lens optimized for slide duplication gives very nice images digitizing my negatives. 

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[fotomas]

Hello,

I own both, the Macro-Elmar 90 (old version) and the APO-Summicron 90. Now I've done a test with the Leica-Macro adapter. 
Since you asked how close you can get I tested it with fully extended lens and adapter. Both shot fully open. As one might expect the APO-Summicron doesn't beat the Macro on the edges. 
With the Macro you can get a bit closer, but the distance to the camera is a bit larger. May be this leads to the irritating information about the closest possible distance.
With the Summicron the distance to the front of the camera was 37,3 cm and with the Macro 38,3 cm.

Here the examples:

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APO-Summicron 90

 

Macro-Elmar 90