EVF brightness and contrast

[ski542002]

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Wow indeed!

I am glad you can confirm what I was seeing! I thought either I was going mad or I had a faulty camera.

Turns out we all have faulty cameras which is probably worse!

I hope we can get this fixed asap!

 

I would love to just be able to trust the display to set exposure.

As Gordon also mentioned the live histogram can be used to double check exposure. 

However I like to have the display as clutter free as possible for shooting. 

 

I'd say the SL is not a faulty camera, just not quite ready for prime time!   I find the SL to be a much more capable camera than my previous go-to iteration, in spite of it's quirks that should be easily (for any camera manufacturer) fixable in firmware. 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

I'd say the SL is not a faulty camera, just not quite ready for prime time!   I find the SL to be a much more capable camera than my previous go-to iteration, in spite of it's quirks that should be easily (for any camera manufacturer) fixable in firmware. 

 

To be fair to Leica, fw2.0 shows they're prepared to make some pretty drastic improvements over time. But because we don't know what's going on behind the scenes we don't know what they're doing or even planning for the next update. Firmware updates for the Novoflex adaptor to EF come through the camera so there will be more updates. It'd be nice for Leica to let us know that they hear us, just occasionally.

 

And regardless, the hardware is just fabulous. I think that's why we stick with it despite its frustrations. I think a lot of us have an idea of what needs to be sorted and we can't understand how Leica made these few daft decisions in the first place. To me most of this stuff is dead obvious. Personally, the frustration is that I fail to understand how it got through like this in the first place, let alone not fixed for fw2.0.

 

Again to Leica: I can't speak for the others but as a working professional I need a few things operationally from a camera. Reliability, intuitiveness, control and consistency. So far the SL seems to have the first but not the other three. I need to be able to use my cameras without having to look at the manual or even taking the camera from my eye. The functions need to be second nature. That means you can't move the dial that does exposure compensation when switching from A to T. And you can't disable live exposure preview when I have a TTL flash on the camera. Control means I get to set up my camera the way *I* want it. Which dial does EC. Viewfinder brightness. You did a great job with button customisation. Now it's time for the rest.

 

Making cameras that concentrate on the essentials and that are intuitive seems to be a Leica philosophy. But the SL doesn't follow it.

 

I need a camera that just gets out of the way. I have enough to think about while I'm working without worrying about how to use my camera because you guys move the functions around between modes. When I'm concentrating on my camera I'm not concentrating on what's in front of my camera. That's a problem, for me.

 

Gordon

[johnbuckley]

This topic has been very illuminating, if you will.  I've been shooting the SL since April and have found the EVF very much as described in the reviews - clear, bright, pretty great.  But I have just spent the past three days shooting in bright sunshine/high contrast light in Yellowstone National Park, and got quite freaked out by how the EVF rendered everything in shadows as essentially black.  If I had access to Internet, and could have read this forum thread, I would have relaxed a bit -- as it was, I drove home today determined to seek out an answer here, and was delighted to find I don't have a defective camera -- or at least not any more defective than the rest...

 

This is not a work around, but the way I adjusted was purely psychologically: I decided to trust that if I exposed for the light, I could bring out the shadow detail in LR.  And that's the way it has worked.  But it shouldn't be like this.  There should be some mechanism for adjusting the EVF in bright light,  just as there is for adjusting the LCD.

[LD_50]

This topic has been very illuminating, if you will.  I've been shooting the SL since April and have found the EVF very much as described in the reviews - clear, bright, pretty great.  But I have just spent the past three days shooting in bright sunshine/high contrast light in Yellowstone National Park, and got quite freaked out by how the EVF rendered everything in shadows as essentially black.  If I had access to Internet, and could have read this forum thread, I would have relaxed a bit -- as it was, I drove home today determined to seek out an answer here, and was delighted to find I don't have a defective camera -- or at least not any more defective than the rest...

 

This is not a work around, but the way I adjusted was purely psychologically: I decided to trust that if I exposed for the light, I could bring out the shadow detail in LR.  And that's the way it has worked.  But it shouldn't be like this.  There should be some mechanism for adjusting the EVF in bright light,  just as there is for adjusting the LCD.

 

I was just in Yellowstone for several days and exposure compensation worked fairly efficiently to evaluate shadow areas. After several days and hundreds of shots I felt the EVF advantages (focus peaking and magnification) greatly outweighed the contrast issue. Using the top dial to quickly adjust EC made this much easier than pre FW2 where a button+dial was required. 

[Jeff S]

This topic has been very illuminating, if you will.  I've been shooting the SL since April and have found the EVF very much as described in the reviews - clear, bright, pretty great.  But I have just spent the past three days shooting in bright sunshine/high contrast light in Yellowstone National Park, and got quite freaked out by how the EVF rendered everything in shadows as essentially black.  If I had access to Internet, and could have read this forum thread, I would have relaxed a bit -- as it was, I drove home today determined to seek out an answer here, and was delighted to find I don't have a defective camera -- or at least not any more defective than the rest...

 

This is not a work around, but the way I adjusted was purely psychologically: I decided to trust that if I exposed for the light, I could bring out the shadow detail in LR.  And that's the way it has worked.  But it shouldn't be like this.  There should be some mechanism for adjusting the EVF in bright light,  just as there is for adjusting the LCD.

 

Limited dynamic range is a known problem with all EVFs....shadows or highlights...including the SL....

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/why-i-hate-evfs/ 

 

https://luminous-landscape.com/some-thoughts-on-the-leica-sl/?s=sean+reid+leica+sl

 

[LuLa is a subscription site, but I hope these download as free articles.  If not, Michael Reichmann mentioned the issue 3 years ago, and Sean Reid echoed it, even after trying the SL 3 years later.]

 

It's only one reason I dislike EVFs.....although they of course provide other advantages.  I'm still reserving judgment on the X1D EVF since I was only able to view it indoors....but I'm predicting the same issue in bright light.

 

Jeff

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jeff S

[haydenc]

I was just in Yellowstone for several days and exposure compensation worked fairly efficiently to evaluate shadow areas. After several days and hundreds of shots I felt the EVF advantages (focus peaking and magnification) greatly outweighed the contrast issue. Using the top dial to quickly adjust EC made this much easier than pre FW2 where a button+dial was required. 

 

The problem is that if you adjust the display using exposure compensation, you are changing the exposure.

 

For me when I first got the camera, I did the same, but then worked out to trust that the image that was too dark in the EVF would be exposed correctly when I got it onto a computer.

So any trick to brighten the display is just that a trick. 

 

I don't use magnication for focusing and as a result of having a screen too dark I have probably made at least 1000 focusing errors as a result. 

On the other hand if I use the T my focus hit rate is 90+%.

I just want the camera I read about in the sales brochure.

read below: superior to optical viewfinders and can be electronically brightened. That would be No and No.

 

"The EyeRes Viewfinder The next generation of viewfinder technology 

The Leica SL is the world’s first camera conceived for professional photography to feature an electronic viewfinder. With a latency time below the threshold of perception and a resolution of 4.4 million pixels, this EyeRes viewfinder developed especially for the Leica SL offers an entirely new visual experience. As its image can be electronically brightened, the EyeRes viewfinder is superior to optical viewfinders in low or unfavorable light."

 

 

 

[johnbuckley]

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Wow. I had forgotten that bit of promotional copy.  And it is just wrong.

 

If you expose for the highlights and trust you can get a lot of detail out of the shadows, even those high contrast shots -- the kind for which a graduated ND filter was designed -- can come out.  But it's not as it was promised, or should be.

[LD_50]

 

The problem is that if you adjust the display using exposure compensation, you are changing the exposure.

 

For me when I first got the camera, I did the same, but then worked out to trust that the image that was too dark in the EVF would be exposed correctly when I got it onto a computer.

So any trick to brighten the display is just that a trick. 

 

I don't use magnication for focusing and as a result of having a screen too dark I have probably made at least 1000 focusing errors as a result. 

On the other hand if I use the T my focus hit rate is 90+%.

I just want the camera I read about in the sales brochure.

read below: superior to optical viewfinders and can be electronically brightened. That would be No and No.

 

"The EyeRes Viewfinder The next generation of viewfinder technology 

The Leica SL is the world’s first camera conceived for professional photography to feature an electronic viewfinder. With a latency time below the threshold of perception and a resolution of 4.4 million pixels, this EyeRes viewfinder developed especially for the Leica SL offers an entirely new visual experience. As its image can be electronically brightened, the EyeRes viewfinder is superior to optical viewfinders in low or unfavorable light."

 

 

 

 

 

When shooting  on a tripod I used the following method:

1- set camera to A mode, use exposure compensation to adjust EVF brightness and magnification to set focus, return EC to zero

2- set camera to M mode, set exposure parameters and make the shot

 

I agree this is a work-around and something I would like corrected in a FW update.

Edited July 10, 2016 by LD_50

[helged]

With a static motif in front of the camera, all sorts of tricks can be used to circumvent the EVF behavour. Otherwise things get difficult, to put it mildly. So again, lets hope that Leica or those producing the EVF for Leica will come up with a workable solution. Not in 2017+, but in 2016.

[chris_tribble]

Interesting that this thread has gone quiet.  I recently got my SL and have been delighted working with it (only using M or R lenses), so of course working in either M, A or Auto ISO.  While the EVF has been great in undemanding daylight or interiors, I found it really challenging in bright light and had to screw my eye into the VF to try to exclude light (I don't wear glasses to shoot - though have the diopter maxed out at 3.5!)

 

Results from the camera are great - http://www.ctribble.co.uk/galleries/PERSONAL/Norfolk_2016_inland_sea/index.html (some of you may recognise the dogs - all images with a mix of M lenses from 21 SEM to 135 A-T), but there were times on the beach when it was a struggle.

 

Good if this could be sorted!

Edited September 27, 2016 by chris_tribble

[Jeff S]

Not just the SL; it's an issue so far with even the best EVFs despite other improvements, i.e., problems in bright sun due to lack of dynamic range.  Sean Reid and others have written about it for quite a while, including after the SL introduction....  http://www.reidreviews.com/examples/sl.html

 

It's one of the factors that turns me off to EVFs compared to OVF, although there are offsetting benefits.

 

I'm intrigued that the recently announced Fuji GFX will come with a removable EVF, which I'm hoping indicates the possibility for future upgrade without changing body.

 

Jeff

[ski542002]

Not just the SL; it's an issue so far with even the best EVFs despite other improvements, i.e., problems in bright sun due to lack of dynamic range.  Sean Reid and others have written about it for quite a while, including after the SL introduction....  http://www.reidreviews.com/examples/sl.html

 

It's one of the factors that turns me off to EVFs compared to OVF, although there are offsetting benefits.

 

I'm intrigued that the recently announced Fuji GFX will come with a removable EVF, which I'm hoping indicates the possibility for future upgrade without changing body.

 

Jeff

 

I had been one of the early complainers and have learned to live with it by really pushing the exposure comp. Now it's second nature.  I've found the other benefits of the EVF vs OVF to more than offset this DR issue.  Funny though; when I had my M240 with the shoe mount EVF, many times I found myself switching between both viewfinders on a shoot. Maybe subconsciously I was switching from one to the other to take advantages of the best features of both?

[Jeff S]

Here's a better illustration of the problem, from the late Michael Reichmann...   http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/03/27/why-i-hate-electronic-viewfinders-evfs-no-were-not-there-yet

 

I don't see how exposure compensation could solve the problem, as increased shadow illumination will wash out highlights.  Dynamic range is dynamic range....it seems to me.

 

Jeff

[ski542002]

Here's a better illustration of the problem, from the late Michael Reichmann...   http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/03/27/why-i-hate-electronic-viewfinders-evfs-no-were-not-there-yet

 

I don't see how exposure compensation could solve the problem, as increased shadow illumination will wash out highlights.  Dynamic range is dynamic range....it seems to me.

 

Jeff

 

You're correct, but when I increase the exposure comp, all I care about is composition and seeing a contrasty edge to focus on, nothing more.  The way I'm using exposure comp, I could care less about DR.

[Jeff S]

And that's an example why different folks make different camera choices.  Fortunately there are many options these days.

 

My paramount camera assessment criteria, before I consider any other factor, is how I'm able to see the subject. If that doesn't suit, the rest generally doesn't matter.  It's one of the major reasons I love the M.  For non-RF digital cameras, I love the VF of the S (although the system currently fails for me in other ways).  The SL EVF (and others I've tried), not so much....at least yet....but I'm hoping for improvement.

 

Jeff

[steppenw0lf]

I'm intrigued that the recently announced Fuji GFX will come with a removable EVF, which I'm hoping indicates the possibility for future upgrade without changing body.

 

Jeff

 

I am not really sure how useful this separation is. Usually I rather upgrade a camera because of a better sensor and other features related to photographic work. Just adding a new, better EVF seems not very useful - unless the old one is very limiting. A second scenario is also thinkable: That you switch the camera and keep the old EVF to save some money.

Both scenarios seem not very realistic for me.

 

More useful would be the option to use by default an OVF and you can add an EVF at demand. (a la M240)

But I do not know if GFX is meant for that.

 

The 10x enlargement and the possibility of focus peaking is what I like in a EVF. Maybe also the preview options. Not so much an extreme resolution. But ok, maybe a new generation of EVFs could possibly offer a wider range regarding brightness/contrast, that would be a perfect reason to exchange only the EVF.

 

I also like to see as many details as possible - especially when taking macro photos. I use then an iPad Pro. This gives me the "exchangable EVF" in a way.    I could even add an LCD TV (via apple tv) if I wanted to get a further increase in image size.

Tethering is the other way to get an improved image view.

Edited September 27, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[steppenw0lf]

I just saw the video about the Fuji GFX and understand now the finder concept better.

It is similar to earlier professional offers e.g. Pentax LX, where they offered different finders for different occasions (normal, sports, macro, ...)

At least now it is not so much about having different resolutions.

[Jeff S]

 

More useful would be the option to use by default an OVF and you can add an EVF at demand. (a la M240)

But I do not know if GFX is meant for that.

 

 

A la M240?  My point is that one can't upgrade the EVF on the M240, so the only option if improvement is desired (which many folks have mentioned here) is not possible.  I bet a fair number of those same users are quite happy with the camera in other regards, including sensor.

 

And if a camera is predicated on an EVF, which the GFX might be, all the more reason to have an option, whether it's used or not.

 

And who said those improvements might be limited to resolution?  There are numerous parameters to consider.

 

Jeff

Edited September 28, 2016 by Jeff S

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[dasjak]

I had been one of the early complainers and have learned to live with it by really pushing the exposure comp. Now it's second nature.  I've found the other benefits of the EVF vs OVF to more than offset this DR issue.  Funny though; when I had my M240 with the shoe mount EVF, many times I found myself switching between both viewfinders on a shoot. Maybe subconsciously I was switching from one to the other to take advantages of the best features of both?

 

 

ok if i set exp comp to say +2, then go to manual mode i have to underexpose by 2 stops to get a correct exposure. the EVF is brighter but of course exp comp affects the metering also in manual mode. at least if you look at the bottom of the screen. so if your exposure is in the middle and you have exp comp activated, it´s underexposed also in manual. hmm, was that clear? haha...

been out in the sun with my 2day old SL and had the same problem...veeeery annoying...

[ski542002]

ok if i set exp comp to say +2, then go to manual mode i have to underexpose by 2 stops to get a correct exposure. the EVF is brighter but of course exp comp affects the metering also in manual mode. at least if you look at the bottom of the screen. so if your exposure is in the middle and you have exp comp activated, it´s underexposed also in manual. hmm, was that clear? haha...

been out in the sun with my 2day old SL and had the same problem...veeeery annoying...

 

Frustrating, isn't it     I've done it enough where it's become a non-issue for me for 2 reasons.  One, I backup my settings using a handheld meter, and I've found the eye-level EVF exposure preview to be extremely accurate, to the point where for the post part my exposures are correct. I can be +3 stops over on the compensation to a level where there are no highlights with detail anywhere and when I depress the shutter 1/2 way, my exposure preview looks perfect.   Don't have the camera with me now to confirm, but I'm not having any issues.  

 

The cool thing is, even in a very dark room if I have lots of compensation dialed in, I can easily manual focus a situation.  The gain-up makes the scene look like tri-x shot at 3200 asa(!), but I can easily focus.  I'm starting to shoot video with the SL and find the focus peaking to be very accurate when I try to manually follow-focus my M lenses as I pan thru a scene; at least an interior that is evenly lit with no backlighting.  Will have to try exposure comp while  shooting video.  Don't have a clue how it will work.