CheshireCat Posted November 8, 2015 Share #101 Posted November 8, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-lenses/ No mention of new primes beyond the announced 50 Summilux, which is listed at 'end of 2016' (with the 90-280 in 'mid 2016'). Exactly. And that is a timeline. Therefore, do not expect any other lens for at least 12 months. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2015 Posted November 8, 2015 Hi CheshireCat, Take a look here interview with Dr. Kaufmann and CEO Kaltner on the SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted November 8, 2015 Share #102 Posted November 8, 2015 It sounds like a nice motto... but revolution literally means to turn away from the past, while tradition literally means hand-over from the past. It should be clear that the two terms are in total antithesis, and when this happens, I call it marketing BS. Did it occur to you that it was perfectly possible for an individual or corporate entity to conserve traditional values in some respects and to vigorously innovate in others at the same time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 8, 2015 Share #103 Posted November 8, 2015 Did it occur to you that it was perfectly possible for an individual or corporate entity to conserve traditional values in some respects and to vigorously innovate in others at the same time? You mean like heavy-metal classical music ? No, did not occur to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted November 8, 2015 Share #104 Posted November 8, 2015 You mean like heavy-metal classical music ? That's not what I was thinking of, but it's a point. Most of the music written in the Renaissance and in the Baroque epoch was not written to be played by particular instruments. Of course, the musician performing a piece on another instrument than the one originally used by the composer was supposed to be able to apply the necessary adaptations, such as playing the notes in sequence which were written as being sounded simultaneously. If Emerson, Lake and Palmer succeeded in interpreting classical works with their style and instrumentation, I don't see why a competent heavy metal band should not be able to do likewise, provided they are able to carry a tune and keep to a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted November 8, 2015 Share #105 Posted November 8, 2015 It should be clear that the two terms are in total antithesis, and when this happens, I call it marketing BS. Thesis and antithesis indeed, but the third term you are looking for is ‘synthesis’, in Hegelian dialectics anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 8, 2015 Share #106 Posted November 8, 2015 Did it occur to you that it was perfectly possible for an individual or corporate entity to conserve traditional values in some respects and to vigorously innovate in others at the same time? I agree. This is the old problem that occurs when people persuade themselves that the real meaning of a word is what the dictionary says it is, rather than the sense in which it was used. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 8, 2015 Share #107 Posted November 8, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is the old problem that occurs when people persuade themselves that the real meaning of a word is what the dictionary says it is, rather than the sense in which it was used. Maybe when interpreting a poem, but this is not the case. Anyways, I can't wait to see the new conservative-revolutionary M. ... guess what the meaning of "I can't wait" is in that sentence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted November 8, 2015 Share #108 Posted November 8, 2015 Is this still leading us somewhere, or is it just pumping around arousal about nothing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 8, 2015 Share #109 Posted November 8, 2015 Maybe when interpreting a poem, but this is not the case. Anyways, I can't wait to see the new conservative-revolutionary M. ... guess what the meaning of "I can't wait" is in that sentence Why? it seems to me that the SL is the better camera for your needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 8, 2015 Share #110 Posted November 8, 2015 Maybe when interpreting a poem, but this is not the case. Anyways, I can't wait to see the new conservative-revolutionary M. ... guess what the meaning of "I can't wait" is in that sentence This would be a huge digression if I pursued it fully, so I'll just say that the distinction you draw between poetry and ordinary speech is fundamentally flawed in more ways than I expect you imagine possible. And for this reason among others I think there is sense in what Dr. Kaufmann said. That doesn't mean I have to like or dislike what he said, but I have no reason to doubt that he expressed his intention honestly. And it is not meaningless. I imagine that there will be some new developments in the new camera that Leica will be able to describe as revolutionary (some will agree they are, others won't) but that the design and basic features will follow the traditional pattern that is well established and easy to recognise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 9, 2015 Share #111 Posted November 9, 2015 Why? it seems to me that the SL is the better camera for your needs. Not really. Compared to my M240, the SL has worse performance with M lenses, and it's bigger, heavier, expensive and still 24 MP. The only real advantage for me would be the high-res EVF, but overall I think Sony rather than Leica deserves my money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 9, 2015 Share #112 Posted November 9, 2015 Not really. Compared to my M240, the SL has worse performance with M lenses, and it's bigger, heavier, expensive and still 24 MP. The only real advantage for me would be the high-res EVF, but overall I think Sony rather than Leica deserves my money. The short answer would be the A7r2 is the one for you! The longer answer is probably more complex, but for the record: the SL looks like it will perform better with some M lenses than the M(240) - that is certainly the case with the 28 Summilux, and we're all rather waiting to see how other lenses perform. The 35 Summicron certainly performs better on the M(240), but that is one of the oldest designs in the Leica catalogue. "Better" in this regard is probably marginal from what we've seen, but it is there if you do 100% comparisons, and go looking for it. it is bigger than the M(240), though not that much. it is heavier, particularly with the zoom, but that's the price you pay for 28-90 AF. it costs the same as the Monochrom(246). it is "still" 24 MP. The reason for going through all that is really to point out that if you want more MP, you really don't want a Leica at all. If you want more MP, and you want to remain in full frame rather than medium format (the new PhaseOne system looks amazing - 80MP!), your choices are limited to the Nikon D810, the Canon 5DSR and the Sony A7r2. I hate to say it, but it really doesn't matter how many times you post here about what the SL is not, it won't change it. It is what it is, and it won't make you happy. It's actually not heavier, bigger or more expensive than the M, if you acknowledge that's the price you pay for AF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Walker Posted November 9, 2015 Share #113 Posted November 9, 2015 Did it occur to you that it was perfectly possible for an individual or corporate entity to conserve traditional values in some respects and to vigorously innovate in others at the same time? In fact, apart from start-up companies, some whose sole purpose is to break the traditional paradigm, most companies I have ever worked with (100s over a 35 year career) would have elements of traditional values and vigorous innovation in their strategy and in their product lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xspider Posted November 9, 2015 Share #114 Posted November 9, 2015 So we will see a new M most likely in September 2016 (Photokina). That has been hinted now a couple of times by people who know the little extra bit! The M will be "pure" and is also considered by Leica as their key product where they can't make any mistakes. So what do expect? 1.) A new processor, just like the SL 2.) An improved sensor, actually in September 2016 I would expect a new sensor generation over what is available today for the SL/Q 3.) An external EVF with the specs of the SL as well as GPS (like in the T)? I would prefer a hybrid VF but whether that is doable and "pure" enough, I am not sure... 4.) Thinner Body, probably but I don't expect a revolution, rather a small evolutionary reduction of size and weight. 6.) Better Display on the back, I don't think a touch our tiltable screen as I wouldn't consider this extremly "pure" or very functional with an M. 7.) No AF, clearly 8.) Dual Card Slot (probably if doable with the size) 9.) WIFI would make sense, Sensor cleaning not so much (that actually anyhow doesn't work anywhere else really well) 10.) Some minor fixes (moveable focus point with EVF, Darkframe to turn off, no limitation in bulb mode)... Well and it will look pretty close to all existing M's... So no big surprises, we can go back have a nice Christmas, spent the camera money on presents for the loved ones and come back to the forum in late August next year ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted November 9, 2015 Share #115 Posted November 9, 2015 I guess I'm still trying to understand exactly what moving to the LED accomplishes. To me it's a bit like power steering on a Porsche You would drive a road Porsche without power steering ? Scary stuff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted November 9, 2015 Share #116 Posted November 9, 2015 Exactly. And that is a timeline. Therefore, do not expect any other lens for at least 12 months. Yes, of course there is that known timeline, I was speaking further out - past 2016. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Leica would announce the additional primes, some, next year at Photo kina. IF the M and R legacy glass work seemlessly, even w/o auto diaphragm, then the SL cost consideration is almost reasonable. Too, that actually may work to the traditional M form factors favor: the R solution can be dropped from the M's design constraint, at least it won't have to be stretched further to accommodate R glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted November 9, 2015 Share #117 Posted November 9, 2015 the R solution can be dropped from the M's design constraint, at least it won't have to be stretched further to accommodate R glass. The only design constraint for the M to take R lenses was CMOS+EVF. So you are basically saying that the next M can go back to CCD and no EVF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted November 9, 2015 Share #118 Posted November 9, 2015 Towards the end of the interview Dr. Kaufmann is quoted as saying: "You can also use all the T lenses on it, and you will have APS-C camera, with a totally different shooting mode. Then the rest (M, S, R, and Cine lenses), you can use the adaptors, which are immediately available." I guess this got lost in translation or something, because on this forum, we are told the adapters will only be available next year. (except for the R-M/M-T work around) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted November 10, 2015 Share #119 Posted November 10, 2015 The only design constraint for the M to take R lenses was CMOS+EVF. A CMOS sensor was an obvious prerequisite but the main design constraint was that the sensor needed to cope with M lenses without enjoying the benefit of a microlens shifting optimised for these lenses. Having said that, once you have a sensor that can deal with a wide range of incident angles it would make little sense to go back. So even if Leica should think that nobody would attempt to use R lenses on an M anymore they might stick to a similar sensor design anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 10, 2015 Share #120 Posted November 10, 2015 A CMOS sensor was an obvious prerequisite but the main design constraint was that the sensor needed to cope with M lenses without enjoying the benefit of a microlens shifting optimised for these lenses. Having said that, once you have a sensor that can deal with a wide range of incident angles it would make little sense to go back. So even if Leica should think that nobody would attempt to use R lenses on an M anymore they might stick to a similar sensor design anyway. It would be rather mean spirited of them to remove a very useful facility from future Ms, and probably delusional too if they were to persuade themselves that all future M users will also buy SLs for their old R lenses. I doubt they'd be so foolish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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