algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #101 Posted October 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Don't you think, just perhaps, that Algrove was being sarcastic? Of course he is. And Louis Foubare: Fluidity and Unpredictability in Street Photography « The Leica Camera Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Hi algrove, Take a look here Next M Camera. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Loren Posted October 17, 2015 Share #102 Posted October 17, 2015 I submit to you that "trounces" gets us into the fanboy trolling language. I'll steer clear of that, but I will say that as a matter of fact, at the time the 240 was released and revived by DxO, the Leica sensor was actually the 4th best sensor and very close in dynamic range of the three leaders, which included edging past the Cannon 5DIII. And, the M240 produces wonderful color, which for me, I just don't appreciate with the Nikon D800. Roger at Lens Rental reviewed the Leica Summilux and APO Summicron along with the best 50mm dSLR lenses including the Zeiss Otus and found no lens that scores as well as the Summicron 50mm APO for center and corner sharpness. The Summilux 50 was probably second as the Otus has soft corners. By the way the Sigma Art scored very well and based on sharpness was better in the center than the Summilux, but not the Summicron. Sensors are just one aspect of a camera system. So, if you aren't a birds and bugs photographer, and want a light weight system that gives the sharpest image with the best color, the M240 is right up there. It may not have the best Mega pixel count at this time, remember we are talking about a 2012 camera, but it would be wrong characterize Leica as struggling to keep a spot at the back of the pack. Rick I am not arguing that the M 240 is not my preferred camera to use or that Leica does not make some truly excellent lenses, or that Canon is not a fine example of lack of dynamic range (they are masters at it, so it seems). The M 240's sensor is not second best. It's 4th by your own citation in a small field of full-frame contenders. That's understandable given the economics of the situation - as I covered earlier. I can still wish for better and it wouldn't require a breakthrough in physics to get it. As far as color goes, I don't consider in-camera JPEG processing as a measure of a system's performance. DNG and NEF give you far more ability to render an image's color anyway you want it and if you find the color not to your liking, then post processing RAW gives you the option to change it. That's particularly true if you have high dynamic range to work with from the start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #103 Posted October 17, 2015 Back to the next camera, waiting for the announcement is driving us nuts!!! Oh, I don't know. It's only a couple of days, and when it arrives and you think it through, turn it over in your mind, it's just another camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #104 Posted October 17, 2015 Of course he is. And Louis Foubare: Fluidity and Unpredictability in Street Photography « The Leica Camera I don't think Erick is - he seems to live in a very contrarian world. I'd love to see his pictures from that viewpoint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted October 17, 2015 Share #105 Posted October 17, 2015 I don't think Erick is As I said I don't believe in the holy trinity ... If you like the golden number I have nothing against it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #106 Posted October 17, 2015 What's the Holy Trinity? In photographic terms, I mean. In terms of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I gave up on that fairy story almost 40 years ago. You say you don't follow the golden 2/3 rule, and that's not entirely revolutionary, but it does not follow that therefore every subject must be centred. That is just another rule. Where you place the subject in relation to the context, what is in focus and what is actually the subject is all variable. If if you always centre your subject, aren't you just following the rules you seem to despise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayewing Posted October 17, 2015 Share #107 Posted October 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sean Reid has announced to suscribers that he will be releasing a number of reviews next week. Although he did not say so I assume that they will be of Leica's new camera. Probably the other regular reviewers will be doing likewise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #108 Posted October 17, 2015 Still the same horrible site, though, I take it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted October 17, 2015 Share #109 Posted October 17, 2015 but it does not follow that therefore every subject must be centred. That is just another rule. when you look something it is just in front of you, it is not a rule Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayewing Posted October 17, 2015 Share #110 Posted October 17, 2015 Still the same horrible site, though, I take it? Unfortunately yes. He has talked about changing it but so far no change. A pity as Sean Reid's reviews are detailed and thoughtful but navigating the website is a pain and his photos are not shown to best advantage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #111 Posted October 17, 2015 This guy was just in front of me somewhere. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/251167-next-m-camera/?do=findComment&comment=2906393'>More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share #112 Posted October 17, 2015 To be honest, I haven't seen a Sean Reid photo which inspired me or challenged me, nor one that illustrated any particular point. Don't get me wrong, I am interested in what he says (despite my poking fun of his vege photos), and I understand he's a nice guy, but I actually learn more from Jono and Thorsten. Sean's distinctions too often read to me like dancing on the head of a pin. After reading his analysis of new cameras using non-Leica lenses I don't own and have no interest in, I do wonder if the subscription is worth it. I'd love it if he re-considered his formulaic reviews and put a little life into them. I'm not talking Steve Huff style "I'M SO EXCITED! OMG! THE BEST CAMERA EVER", just before he sells it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted October 17, 2015 Share #113 Posted October 17, 2015 I think Sean provides a useful service. But as noted, here's the thing most interesting in his email to subscribers: "... I have been working on a series of articles that will be coming out soon. Next week I will begin publishing several reviews in succession and sometimes just days apart. In other words, the faucet of new articles on RR is about to open." We know that there is going to be a new Leica, whether or not it is going to be called the SL. But since Sean is, first and foremost, a reviewer of Leicas, and since this makes clear there are several cameras coming, for the first time in weeks there is a slight reason to be optimistic that a new M could also be released... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasAM Posted October 17, 2015 Share #114 Posted October 17, 2015 I think Sean provides a useful service. But as noted, here's the thing most interesting in his email to subscribers: "... I have been working on a series of articles that will be coming out soon. Next week I will begin publishing several reviews in succession and sometimes just days apart. In other words, the faucet of new articles on RR is about to open." We know that there is going to be a new Leica, whether or not it is going to be called the SL. But since Sean is, first and foremost, a reviewer of Leicas, and since this makes clear there are several cameras coming, for the first time in weeks there is a slight reason to be optimistic that a new M could also be released... Don't get your hopes up too high! Sean will test the SL and the three forthcoming lenses all in individual reviews. So there you have at least 4 reviews already, complete with the fruit shots. Another 4 landscape reviews makes 8. Double that when he compares them against M and R lenses and each other. So that makes 16!! I love the meticulous method by which he dissects the optical qualities of lenses and the ergonomic failures of a new camera. The pictures (especially the B/W) always show an interesting take on middle of the road USA. Not so much artistic, more artisan. Always a great read with lots of detailed info! Will keep the subscription, although the technique of his site is very much out of tune for a Mac-user. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #115 Posted October 17, 2015 John He mentions "several reviews in succession", but that could mean one new camera and that he has been testing new lenses for it or M, T or R lenses for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted October 17, 2015 Share #116 Posted October 17, 2015 If we take Leica at their word - "das Wesentliche", or the essentials, what is the defining characteristic of the M camera? manual focus lenses between 18mm & 135mm optical view finder aperture priority, to the extent there is any automation available light photography The fundamental point, though, is the optical rangefinder with manual focus lenses of a limited range. That is it's strength as it results in a compact, extremely high quality camera system that works best with handheld image taking - the sort of thing you do travelling, walking about your own city and enjoying time with family. It can also work well for landscape and other things, but this is its core function. I understand people wanting video, long telephotos, zooms, AF and all the other things that technology can provide for us, but that is not what the M camera is about - there are other cameras for that - the S looks like a fantastic camera to me (big, heavy, expensive, but weather sealed, fabulous AF lenses and what looks like an amazing image quality), and I think we can assume that the SL will provide a more portable version, without the mirror box and with a 35mm sensor. If the EVF is good enough, it will provide a real alternative to a dSLR, which the A7 series already tries to do. But the M, I'd rather it gave up trying to be all things to all photographers, and just focussed on its core strength and strived to improve on that rather than offering other things. The S, the SL, the T and X cameras have the other things covered. I understand people finding video useful from time to time, and it is a no-cost option, but adding something because you can (and not doing it to the standard of the rest of the camera) for me dilutes the purity of the whole. If video remains, I hope at least it can be disabled as a no-cost option. Cheers John PS - one of the great flaws in the M system (for me) is the fixed focal point in the middle of the viewfinder. It's not so much that at wide apertures at relatively short focal distances focus and recompose really doesn't work; it's more that we all tend to put our subjects in the middle of the frame, which I do find stultifying. A big part of composition is where you put the subject, and the tension you can create by balancing the subject off centre against the rest of the picture, or as Lars used to say in relation to the 21mm focal length, thinking like an Chinese picture maker, and having a number of subjects across the image in the same plane. I don't think a movable focal point combined with the optical view finder is even remotely realistic, so a high quality EVF is probably an essential part of the system (provided it isn't picked up cheap from another manufacturer, repriced with a huge Leica premium, and unable to be upgraded - that was not a good look). John the video function can be disabled by menu option with the M (Typ 240). I don't use it either but would often take an accidental video turning the camera around to show the LCD ;-) Whenever the M is updated in the future I don't see any reason why that option wouldn't be retained. The Typ 007 is capable of selectable focus area when used in Liveview remotely with an app. I think it is a reasonable guess that this might be part of a future M as well and the SL will likely point the way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #117 Posted October 17, 2015 I see Andrew also had comment along my thought process too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted October 17, 2015 Share #118 Posted October 17, 2015 Damn, I was getting my hopes up, I'll admit it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 17, 2015 Share #119 Posted October 17, 2015 We all are John. It will take something special to het me to part with all my M-240 platform cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted October 18, 2015 Share #120 Posted October 18, 2015 I am not arguing that the M 240 is not my preferred camera to use or that Leica does not make some truly excellent lenses, or that Canon is not a fine example of lack of dynamic range (they are masters at it, so it seems). The M 240's sensor is not second best. It's 4th by your own citation in a small field of full-frame contenders. That's understandable given the economics of the situation - as I covered earlier. I can still wish for better and it wouldn't require a breakthrough in physics to get it. As far as color goes, I don't consider in-camera JPEG processing as a measure of a system's performance. DNG and NEF give you far more ability to render an image's color anyway you want it and if you find the color not to your liking, then post processing RAW gives you the option to change it. That's particularly true if you have high dynamic range to work with from the start. Loren, Without dragging this thread into the technical side, the Leica from 2012 has higher dynamic range and color depth than the touted Sony A7s (the 12 MP shoot a black cat in the dark ISO monster). The Sony does not give 14bit output, only 12bit. Yet the Sony scores higher on DxO mark. The great Sony RX1 also scores higher yet the image is not as workable as the M and is certainly not better. Just two examples. My point is that to be in the top 4 of DxO's weird scoring that weights ISO performance as the skewing factor, is really good. And, the fact is that the actual image quality of the M is not behind the technological curve. It could be argued it is the best. But, I'll leave it here and just say that I don't think Leica is going to have any problems keeping up especially when the new M is finally released. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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