colonel Posted October 12, 2015 Share #41 Posted October 12, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Oh I do love brass though [emoji41] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Hi colonel, Take a look here Transition from M9 to M240 - your thoughts. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
terrycym Posted October 12, 2015 Share #42 Posted October 12, 2015 My ME sufferered from sensor delamination so Leica part-exed it for a M I love it! i couldn't imagine going back, which I can't as I suspect it's a pile of spare parts now. The screen can now be seen in daylight. LiveView let's me frame my 15mm lens accurately when I need to the focussing is so much easier with a 90mm with focus peaking The battery last longer The menu system is better Auto ISO is usefull Higher usable ISO is great The thumb wheel makes it more ergonomic Even the grip accessory looks so much nicer than that for the ME/M9 which looked odd at best Plus more, I'm sure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted October 12, 2015 Share #43 Posted October 12, 2015 Earlier I suggested to wait and see what the announcement is going to be coming up. I retract that because if your waiting for the latest and greatest, likely will not be available for months! Me, I would get the M240 now and wait a few years if still want to upgrade to something newer. For me, the M240 does all I need a camera to be right now, and I would be fine if was the last M. Highly unlikely I will put an order in for whatever is on the horizon. But, if designed like the T......I could change my mind. And if that were to be the case, would hang onto my M forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
indergaard Posted October 12, 2015 Share #44 Posted October 12, 2015 But then what do you say when your paint starts to wear off... your M is "magnesiuming"? I bet most owners replace them or upgrade them before they even start brassing with the rapid digital camera development. So who cares what material is used. I do like that my MP black paint (analog) is made of brass of course. But that's a camera that I'll have for a long, long time, that I also acquired new. But my M240? Nope... I just wish it was lighter and thinner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted October 12, 2015 Share #45 Posted October 12, 2015 That's true. I just wish they had dropped the brass parts and rather used magnesium to keep the weight down, for example. As a digital camera, it doesn't need to be built to last forever. A decade is fine. And magnesium would keep the weight and costs down, and provide the same level of reliability regarding construction quality, as magnesium have better machining properties than brass, for example. Given the quality exceeds that of film I see no reason why a modern full frame digital camera can not be expected to still be a useful camera in 10, 20, 30 years. There is no need to think of digital as disposable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted October 12, 2015 Share #46 Posted October 12, 2015 Given the quality exceeds that of film I see no reason why a modern full frame digital camera can not be expected to still be a useful camera in 10, 20, 30 years. There is no need to think of digital as disposable. Except the lead-free solder will not last that long. 15 - 20 years and the electronics will be toast. Lead-free solder (RoHS) grows tin whiskers and shorts out electronics. Every consumer electronic product made from 2006 on uses lead-free solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted October 12, 2015 Share #47 Posted October 12, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Except the lead-free solder will not last that long. 15 - 20 years and the electronics will likely be toast. Lead-free solder (RoHS) grows tin whiskers and shorts out electronics. It's a statistic game, but one I don't enjoy playing. Every consumer electronic product made from 2006 on uses lead-free solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
indergaard Posted October 13, 2015 Share #48 Posted October 13, 2015 Given the quality exceeds that of film I see no reason why a modern full frame digital camera can not be expected to still be a useful camera in 10, 20, 30 years. There is no need to think of digital as disposable. Wishful thinking... The M240 is built up with parts mostly not manufactured by Leica in the first place. See the M8. 10 years is stretching it. 20-30 years is wishful thinking. Do you seriously think the manufacturer of the LCD, shutter curtain, and all the other electronics will still have parts available in 20-30 years? The EVF for the M240 isn't even being manufactured any more... It's easy to support the film cameras, since they are 100% in-house, all mechanical, and don't rely on hundreds if not thousands of parts from 3rd party manufacturors and distributors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 13, 2015 Share #49 Posted October 13, 2015 Nah, my Tandy TRS100, Sony Mavica and other old electronics are still working fine. I am sure well kept M240s will be working in 30-40 years time Whether anyone at that time is not using their Google glasses to take pictures is another thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 13, 2015 Share #50 Posted October 13, 2015 Wishful thinking... The M240 is built up with parts mostly not manufactured by Leica in the first place. See the M8. 10 years is stretching it. 20-30 years is wishful thinking. Do you seriously think the manufacturer of the LCD, shutter curtain, and all the other electronics will still have parts available in 20-30 years? The EVF for the M240 isn't even being manufactured any more... It's easy to support the film cameras, since they are 100% in-house, all mechanical, and don't rely on hundreds if not thousands of parts from 3rd party manufacturors and distributors. Well, I have a Leica Digilux 1, Leicas first digital camera, which I bought new when it was released in 2002. It's built up with parts mostly not manufactured by Leica in the first place. (See the M8? Go to the M8 forum and take a look at some of the photography there, taken by older M8's... One of my favourite sections in the whole forum as that is where you see some of the very best photography on here) Back to my Digilux I. The LCD is still working, the shutter is still working and all the electronics are working perfectly well... Like the M240, there is no built in EVF to worry about anyway and the electronic components, which, incidentally, don't number hundreds let alone thousands of parts, are also made by third party manufacturers. All still working, as new, thirteen years later. I'll let you know when it hits twenty years. Opinions are not facts... like anything else of course there will be cameras that fail and cameras that will go on more or less forever. And yes, it's true that a purely mechanical camera will not have electronics that fail at any point in its life, but there are lots of mechanical parts that could fail, so you have to rely on the manufacturer to maintain spares, just like with manufacturers of digital cameras... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 13, 2015 Share #51 Posted October 13, 2015 The inability of Leica to replace the LCD screen on the M8 (and the camera was 'only' about 5 years or so old at the time) and the long non-availability of new replacement batteries for the DMR are facts not opinions. Even the much trumpeted Digilux whatsit is probably unable to use SDHC cards so you are stuck using your own stock of cards or seeking replacement SD cards via eBay. I have no idea if the tin whiskers story is something concocted by Ken Rockwell or whether it is a genuine problem but I agree with Borge that expecting a current digital camera to be useful in 20-30 years is laughably optimistic. The camera might well work if you can find a working battery for it but does anyone seriously think they won't have bought another camera by then (many of those claiming that the M240 is a camera for life will inevitably be already putting their names down on lists for the next digital wundercamera from Leica). I'm not any illusions about Leica's ability to cock anything up and I treat their marketing claim that they will keep parts for the MP available for thirty years as just that: marketing spiel. However, with some exceptions (such as original M3 finders) Leica are still able to repair and service pretty much any film M. In contrast, their record with anything remotely electronic is decidedly dodgy to say the least – in addition to the M8 and DMR already mentioned, Leica found themselves unable to service the CM only a few years after it was still in the product catalogue. The same applies to the Minilux and I think I might be right that they will no longer fix the metering of the R8 (though it might be that it is uneconomic to do so rather than they simply can't do it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted October 13, 2015 Share #52 Posted October 13, 2015 We all know that most of these cameras will be replaced as 'users' long before they reach any great age. It's just that there is a great deal of misunderstanding and misinformation about product longevity, period, on here. Almost everything is to do with the decisions designers, product engineers and Leica's ability to invest in 'lifetime support' for spares, whether electronic or mechanical... It's a matter of whatever a manufacturer considers a lifetime... and buys or has the ability to manufacture spares for that period. It has nothing to do with whether a camera is digital or analogue. The same decisions hold true for both... it's just that today, people value longevity less and possible technology advances more, so those decisions tend to be made to not support long periods after sales. I doubt many people will brag about having a sixty year old MacBook Pro!!! Of course cost would then come into it... and it would be down to the owner whether it was economical to repair or not... or whether he wanted to take the opportunity to buy a new camera and benefit from whatever changes is design, approach or technology had made over the intervening life of the previous camera. I just think it's a nonsense discussion... and completely off topic... Which is about the transition from a M9 to M240... and it was a very interesting thread until this diversion and yes, I know I have had a part to play in that! So, with apologies, back on track... moving from an M9 to M240... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted October 13, 2015 Share #53 Posted October 13, 2015 I've got a pair of 11 year-old Mk 1 Canon 5D's. Canon just stopped supporting them this year, but many independent places service them (not that it would be economical given they're only worth around $500 at best). I've been saying for the last 5 years that as soon as one breaks I'm going to upgrade to a newer model, but so far they are both perfect. And those are prosumer bodies, not 1-series. I don't see any justifiable reason not to expect the same longevity from an M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardgb Posted October 13, 2015 Share #54 Posted October 13, 2015 I traded-in my M9 for a new M about 6 months ago and have never looked back. Reasons? My M9 had been back to Solms twice since 2010 for sensor and electronic repairs / replacements, each time meaning I was Leica-less for several weeks, not to mention the shipping costs (long story). I wasn't going to wait for the sensor to fail... The overall cost of the change from M9 to M was £2300 (equating to, say, £500 per year), and the new M was cheaper than the M9, both in actual £ spent and allowing for general price rises. All the previous comments in this thread and elsewhere in the Forum comparing the cameras apply to me, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted October 14, 2015 Share #55 Posted October 14, 2015 Wishful thinking... The M240 is built up with parts mostly not manufactured by Leica in the first place. See the M8. 10 years is stretching it. 20-30 years is wishful thinking. Do you seriously think the manufacturer of the LCD, shutter curtain, and all the other electronics will still have parts available in 20-30 years? I have several friends who are collectors of computers with several from the 1980s that still operate, so sure why not. With good care electronics tend to last, and if they don't you can procure parts from other units. Loren, on 13 Oct 2015 - 10:08, said:Except the lead-free solder will not last that long. 15 - 20 years and the electronics will be toast. Lead-free solder (RoHS) grows tin whiskers and shorts out electronics. Every consumer electronic product made from 2006 on uses lead-free solder. That is quite a serious problem, and if this is the case for all electronics now days has consideration not been given to what could happen to various important electronics such as satellite components, military hardware and aircraft equipment? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 14, 2015 Share #56 Posted October 14, 2015 Metal whiskering is a phenomenon which occurs in electrical devices. Tin whiskers were noticed and documented in the vacuum tube era of electronics early in the 20th century, in equipment which used pure, or almost pure, tin solder in their production. It was noticed that small metal hairs or tendrils grew between metal solder pads causing short circuits. Metal whiskers form in the presence of compressive stress. Zinc, cadmium, and even lead whiskers have been documented.[1] Many techniques are used to mitigate the problem including changes to the annealing process (heating and cooling), addition of elements like copper and nickel, and the inclusion of conformational coatings.[2] Traditionally, lead is added to slow down whisker growth. Following the Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive (RoHS), the European Union banned the use of lead in most consumer electronic products in the early 21st century due to health problems associated with lead and the “high-tech trash” problem, leading to a re-focusing on the issue. Mitigation and elimination Several approaches are used to reduce or eliminate whisker growth with ongoing research in the area. Conformal coatings Conformal compound coatings stop the whiskers from penetrating a barrier and reaching a nearby termination and forming a short. These include barriers made of a ceramic or polymeric compound. Polymeric compounds tend to deflect the whisker away while ceramic chemistries prevent puncturing of the coating.[13]Altering plating chemistry Termination finishes of nickel, gold or palladium have been shown to eliminate whiskering in controlled trials.[13][14] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted October 15, 2015 Share #57 Posted October 15, 2015 I have several friends who are collectors of computers with several from the 1980s that still operate, so sure why not. With good care electronics tend to last, and if they don't you can procure parts from other units. That is quite a serious problem, and if this is the case for all electronics now days has consideration not been given to what could happen to various important electronics such as satellite components, military hardware and aircraft equipment? Military, space, and medical devices are exempt. We produce stuff for those categories and still use tin/lead, but it is still a mixed bag. Many chips are RoHS and mixing RoHS and tin/lead isn't a true fix. Legislators did this figuring that someone would invent a cure, but it has not materialized. As the colonel posted, there are expensive ways to help mitigate it, but nothing you will see in commercial electronics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colint544 Posted October 15, 2015 Share #58 Posted October 15, 2015 Wow - that's both interesting and disheartening. Presumably, companies who manufacture products featuring lead-free solder must know about the whiskering effect. I'm not a wealthy man at all, but three years ago, I sold my soul and paid the price of a small car for a Leica M Monochrom. It was advertised as a "camera for a lifetime". I've no intention of ever selling it or trading it in. For me it really is a camera for a lifetime. It does everything, and more, that I could ever wish for. It operates in tandem with my M2 and M5, both comfortably over 40 years old. The M5, incidentally, contains some electronic circuitry, and that still works perfectly. Doubtless I'm naive for believing the marketing, but I'm a Leica guy. I wouldn't use any other camera for my personal work. I've used, trusted, and adored Leica products for over 20 years. It just seems wrong to promote a product which is so scaldingly, eye-wateringly expensive, something which costs three or four times the price of a Leica M-A (a camera that will last practically forever) as a camera for a lifetime, if you know the innards have a lifespan of only ten or fifteen years. After which they cannot be replaced. Fine if you don't care, or can afford to replace your camera every few years. But really not fine at all if you wanted a camera that you could always trust. If you're manufacturing two products, one which will last indefinitely with occasional maintenance, and one which you throw away after a number of years because it can't be repaired, shouldn't the throwaway product cost less, not considerably more? And shouldn't the manufacturer be honest about it, and not make claims about a "camera for a lifetime"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted October 15, 2015 Share #59 Posted October 15, 2015 I think we shouldn't panic. The ICs are mostly protected by ceramics and from what I have read the number 1 electronic component to fail is still the capacitor. We are saying we are therefore mainly worried about tracks shorting out. As they are coated and not so near each other, electronically speaking, I really don't think we should be worried. The things that will be most effected by this are likely to be open solder stuff such as cheap hifis, etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted October 15, 2015 Share #60 Posted October 15, 2015 Marketing veasel words, digital camera for a lifetime of the product more likely. In one respect any new mainstream digital M so far is features laden while slightly cheaper than the predecessor. Agree with above post, anything with short service life ought to cost accordingly cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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