B&W from M8

[ChrisC]

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I'm taking my time getting used to my M8, but something completely unexpected has happened; a reawakened interest in making black and white finished images for the first time in many years. My B&W darkroom work ceased when I couldn't live with worsening paper, film, and even developers, and I find it odd that this tiny camera is leading back to working some subjects in B&W.

 

My preference was always for the rich tonality of roll-film and large format rather than the more graphic style of 35 mm and Tri-x. With that in mind, which B&W conversion methods would give me a rich tonality in an image as the starting point for post production? Contrast is my enemy, I like to start with a slightly flat image, build contrast as I go and retain highlight detail.

 

Anyone have B&W conversion experience from M8 files that are improvements on simply de-saturating in Photoshop?

 

....................Chris

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[wparsonsgisnet]

Several here use the b/w profiles from JFI Color Labs. See:

JFI Color Labs

I use the "toolkit" set. Many others use the "films" set to get grain lookalikes in b/w. I haven't started doing that yet.

The prices are astonishingly low -- they work with C1 (both LE and PRO).

Nice stuff.

[ChrisC]

Thanks Bill - I will check that out. Any comments on the tonality of the conversions?

 

......Chris

[timwalker]

I can't encourage you strongly enough to abandon the desaturation method and look into some others, and there are many good options.

 

Perhaps the simplest to start with is just the Channel Mixer in PhotoShop. You'll be amazed how much control over tonality you have by adjusting the gray scale mix from the original RGB channels in the image. You can make strikingly different variations from the same files.

 

I've recently been using Adobe Lightroom and find it very flexible for black and white options. It offers several ways into conversions with different effects. I particularly like being able to use the direct selection tool and control luminance in the channels in addition to the grayscale conversion, darkening skies, etc.

 

There are some good books out there with great tips on this. The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom book by Martin Evening if you're using Lightroom, or Real Word Digital Photography (very extensive) if you're using Photoshop (to name just a couple).

[DaCh]

Tim

Why Channel Mixer and not Adjustment Layers?

I have tried both and I would go with Layers every time.

Mixer is a great way to get good results quickly.

Layers gives more flexibility and ultimately better results.

OK it is a bit more work but it must be worth it.

Cheers

David

[Bob Ross]

Hi Chris,

Your preference is similar to mine in B&W. Lots of good advice for the PP route here, but also take time to explore the in-camera JPEG B&W. A test set at ISO 160 and with lower contrast settings, with and without an IR cut filter will give you some material to compare to your idea of B&W. You might be as surprised as I was.

Bob

[ChrisC]

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Tim - Thank you. I won't be buying into Lightroom, but Channel Mixer [one of the Photoshop controls I had not used] seems to have possibilities, though after a quick play I readily see a danger of file clipping which is something I must avoid.

 

....Why Channel Mixer and not Adjustment Layers?

......... I would go with Layers every time.........

 

David - Do you mean multiple 'Channel Mixer' adjustment layers and then blend them with masks? Or have I misunderstood your post?

 

Bob - It's a thought, but I don't want to go the route of committing an in-camera J-peg to being B&W.

 

.....................Chris

[DaCh]

Chris

Sorry it took me a while to reply.

It goes something like this:

“Channel mixer” is grey scale conversion with individual control of red, green and blue content. Just remember that if you reduce one you need to increase the other two and you should get good results. Only problem is that you need experience to get it right because you need to be able to recognise the mix of colours that will give the best result when it is converted into a grey scale.

“Adjustment layers” is much more fun;

Open the image, create a duplicate layer, desaturate it and set saturation as the blending mode.

Select the original (background), create a new adjustment layer for curves then a new adjustment layer for hue / saturation.

Now you have a B&W image on screen that you can experiment with as much as you like, if you don’t like the effect you just “undo”.

“curves” lets you control the gradation, just like always, “hue / saturation is a bit less obvious because you are altering the individual colours in a B&W image but it soon becomes obvious when you start fiddling with them.

Maybe you will find it useful to compare the original colour image with the B&W one so you can see what the colours are that you are going to change.

When you like what you have you “merge all” and that’s it, you should have a crisp well toned but obviously digital image. Next comes the very personal process of adding “the look” that you like, 1930’s ortho, Tri X etc. Or even toning!

I hope all that makes sense, and even more I hope that someone else will agree that it is a reasonable way of converting to black and white.

Cheers

David

[Photoskeptic]

I use the Channel Mixer in PS. I find I can get the results I want with this method. I have tried at least four different methods for bw in PS. After using the Channel Mixer, I use probably on average three different Curves adjustments to fine tune the image. Sometimes I also use the Shadows/Highlights for particular adjustments. My advice is to experiment, experiment, experiment. Everyone's tastes are a bit different and the only way you will achieve an image which suits you is to try many different approaches. Once you are achieve a workflow which satisfies you then you will have the confidence you need to work quickly through every new bw conversion.

Good luck.

John

[ChrisC]

David, and John - Thank you for contributing. My ideal would be working the component RGB ingredients of the file whilst viewing it as a grey-scale, and very importantly; not bruising the file in the process. I guess the intention is easier to state than achieve. If anyone else has useful experiences of M8 to B&W I'd be glad to hear it. [Where is David Adamson when you want to pick his brain]?

 

......................Chris

[stunsworth]

I've been using the Alien Skin Exposure plug-in for the last few months. Expensive at $199, but I've used it so much that I think it has been money well spent. I've tried many of the other plug-ins and techniques available, but Exposure gives me the look I'm looking for (no pun intended) consistently.

 

There's a 30 day trial available on the Alien Skin website - Alien Skin Software, LLC

[rbaron]

I've been using the Alien Skin Exposure plug-in for the last few months. Expensive at $199, but I've used it so much that I think it has been money well spent. I've tried many of the other plug-ins and techniques available, but Exposure gives me the look I'm looking for (no pun intended) consistently.

 

There's a 30 day trial available on the Alien Skin website - Alien Skin Software, LLC

 

I gather such plug-ins do not work in Lightroom. Is Lightroom in any way a part of your work flow or do you just go straight to Photoshop?

 

--Bob

[stunsworth]

Bob, you are correct it doesn't work in Lightroom. I use Photoshop in conjunction with iView Media Pro to handle the cataloguing side of things.

[rbaron]

Bob, you are correct it doesn't work in Lightroom. I use Photoshop in conjunction with iView Media Pro to handle the cataloguing side of things.

You must be on a Mac.

 

I have tried several versions of IVMP in Windows and could not get confident with its stability (or because of its lack thereof).

 

I wanted it to work, and YMMV, but it did not work for me.

 

--Bob

[martinb]

There's thousands of ways of doing it. Search google and you will find tons of stuff on the subject. I make a lot of B&W and for a filter effect I usually use an action involving hue/saturation. A lab action is pretty good for general use.

More lately though I've just started to drop saturation in the raw converter and I like the results I'm getting. Closer to the look of film to me. Doesn't work that well with JPEG's though.

I think people usually make it more complicated than it really is and end up with overprocessed files.

[ChrisC]

Steve - I had not thought of Alien Skin Exposure, I'll check out their web site again as I plan to get Blowup. Exposure does look pricey though for someone who has fallen into the M8 cash black-hole.

 

Martin - Thanks for your suggestion of B&W converting in the RAW converter, it's something I will consider.

 

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

.................Chris

[Photoskeptic]

Chris, George de Wolfe has a new book on digital. He discusses desaturating in RAW. I won't recommend the book, but reading the section where he discusses this might prove interesting.

[timwalker]

Adjustment layers is a great way of doing it. As I said in my first comment, Channel Mixer is a simple place to START... my comment was aimed at someone talking about using desaturation and Channel Mixer is superior to that, but I did say that it was just one place to start.

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[ChrisC]

Tim - Thanks for your contribution, I have been playing with channel mixer as an adjustment layer but I do find it a little clunky and counter intuitive to my usual work methods. I need to be certain that the file will retain the highest integrity through the conversion and not be vulnerable to further post production and resizing. At this moment I'm not at all sure what is going on in the file with channel mixer [it's not a control that I have ever needed to use] - I need to do some additional reading.

 

....................Chris

[billh]

Regardless how you make the conversion, This paper,

 

http://www.crane.com/museo/museosilverrag.aspx

 

on an Epson 2400 or 4800 makes prints at least as rich as I used to get from medium and large format negatives in the darkroom.