Peter Kilmister Posted June 30, 2015 Share #21 Posted June 30, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) This should explain the concept: http://www.pinhole.cz/en/pinholecameras/whatis.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Peter Kilmister, Take a look here "no professional style cameras allowed". I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
skinnfell Posted June 30, 2015 Share #22 Posted June 30, 2015 I would say 99% certain that a Leica with a small lens would pass as a "amateur" camera. But your cheapo canon 60D with video accessories would most certainly NOT be allowed. http://www.thefilmmakersworkshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/canon-60D.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert blu Posted June 30, 2015 Share #23 Posted June 30, 2015 I would go with the T...just my idea... robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted June 30, 2015 Share #24 Posted June 30, 2015 I never had any trouble bringing a Leica into a concert, body in one coat pocket, 135mm lens in another. The problem I had was much too short focal for the shots I want. Recently bought a Panny TZ60 which is the size of a smartphone but has an effective 720mm zoom. I get shots from the cheap seats that look like I was in the front row. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted June 30, 2015 Share #25 Posted June 30, 2015 Where are you located & what kind of event/venue is it? I shoot many shows here in Washington, DC at small-to-medium sized venues w/some photography & video restrictions & most staff would interpret "professional" as = anything w/interchangeable lenses ("detachable" is the actual term used in many posted rules). Basically, a Leica M will be treated the same as a Fuji X series, Sony Alpha, or other compact mirrorless. The only place where size was explicitly a factor was Nationals Park (our baseball stadium) a couple years ago where I was informed that lenses longer than 8 (IIRC) inches were prohibited (I had a 135mm lens that was over the limit but the staff let it slide). Then again, a lot of the folks working security at the venues I frequent are art school grads or other creative-type people, so having somebody recognize a Leica is not unusual. Things get confusing because often there's a disconnect between a club's "official" rules & what the performers want, e.g., artists can impose more restrictions about photography/video (more common w/bigger/vainer performers) than the venue's default rules, but sometimes the reverse happens, too. What have people's experience been? I'm planning on going to an event where they explicitly state: "Personal cameras are allowed, but no professional style camera rigs or video recorders." Do people recognize the Leica as a "Professional style" camera? How stealth are RFs actually these days with the rise of nearly pro-quality mirrorless cameras? There is no doubt that an M is a "professional style camera" by some definition of "style". It may even be the quintessential "professional camera". However I expect what they really mean is no "big cameras with huge lenses". What are people's actual experiences with the staff at venues? I expect that they will take a quick glance at the M and maybe if they know something possibly think, "old film camera" and wave me through. What are people's recent actual experiences? Do event staff perceive an M as a "professional style camera"? I was thinking of taking my M with a 28cron and no hood. My other option would be to take my T with its 23cron. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 30, 2015 Share #26 Posted June 30, 2015 This should explain the concept: http://www.pinhole.cz/en/pinholecameras/whatis.html I look forward with eager anticipation to Rick's response... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bencoyote Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share #27 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Where are you located & what kind of event/venue is it? I shoot many shows here in Washington, DC at small-to-medium sized venues w/some photography & video restrictions & most staff would interpret "professional" as = anything w/interchangeable lenses ("detachable" is the actual term used in many posted rules). Basically, a Leica M will be treated the same as a Fuji X series, Sony Alpha, or other compact mirrorless. The only place where size was explicitly a factor was Nationals Park (our baseball stadium) a couple years ago where I was informed that lenses longer than 8 (IIRC) inches were prohibited (I had a 135mm lens that was over the limit but the staff let it slide). Then again, a lot of the folks working security at the venues I frequent are art school grads or other creative-type people, so having somebody recognize a Leica is not unusual. Things get confusing because often there's a disconnect between a club's "official" rules & what the performers want, e.g., artists can impose more restrictions about photography/video (more common w/bigger/vainer performers) than the venue's default rules, but sometimes the reverse happens, too. What I have in mind is less of an artist/performer thing. So I was never intending on taking any kind of long lens. My plan was to take a 28mm Summicron and that was it. The venue is the Hard Rock hotel & casino in Las Vegas. My friend is a vendor at http://www.fetishandfantasyhalloweenball.com and http://www.fetishandfantasyexpo.com and is giving me some free passes. I thought it would be a fun place to do some sort of street shooting kind of things and she also wanted me to document some of her work http://www.exoticanimalzoo.com Sounds like a fun way to spend Halloween to me. Edited June 30, 2015 by bencoyote Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted June 30, 2015 Share #28 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Hmm, w/casinos you have other restrictions that you may want to look into before bringing your camera, e.g., generally casinos don't allow shooting where there's gambling. As far as artist/performer, I also meant burlesque, performance art, etc. & the rules are generally the same (I usually shoot shows in the 21-35mm range, w/the occasional 50 or 75). Also, w/an adult-oriented event like your Fetish & Fantasy Halloween Ball, privacy concerns from attendees will probably be a potential problem (even if they sign a release for the organizers & their "official photographers"). I would shoot an email to the organizers to try to get some clarification from them. If you're affiliated w/a publication, blog, or PR company (or have friends who are), there's also the possibility of getting press credentials. What I have in mind is less of an artist/performer thing. So I was never intending on taking any kind of long lens. My plan was to take a 28mm Summicron and that was it. The venue is the Hard Rock hotel & casino in Las Vegas. My friend is a vendor at http://www.fetishandfantasyhalloweenball.com and http://www.fetishandfantasyexpo.com and is giving me some free passes. I thought it would be a fun place to do some sort of street shooting kind of things and she also wanted me to document some of her work http://www.exoticanimalzoo.com Sounds like a fun way to spend Halloween to me. Edited June 30, 2015 by furcafe Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sml_photo Posted June 30, 2015 Share #29 Posted June 30, 2015 I usually call the different venues in Chicago first. Some allow photos and some don't...depending on the performer's policy. So, I check first. One time, they told me that no professional cameras were allowed. When I asked what that meant, they said, "Ya know...a camera with a 50mm lens." Shows how little much of the non-photogs in the world understand about photography. (I didn't bring a camera to that show.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 1, 2015 Share #30 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I'm curious why do you not consider the M a professional camera? What is it then? I can see it as almost the quintessential professional camera but I can also see it as the height of the expression of an enthusiast camera or maybe it is the enthusiasts camera that professionals sometimes carry? I agree that pinning down a term like "professional camera" is almost impossible and I don't have a good definition myself. I think that I would start with something like: 1) the construction is designed for the markedly heavier use by someone using it as a work tool as opposed to a hobbyist or casual user. I wouldn't expect a Lumix G7 to survive very long under the heavy use of a professional photographer the same way that I would expect a D4 to last. My first serious camera of the digital era a Lumix GX1 basically fell apart. 2) features that are almost only needed by professionals. like dual card slots or ways to share configurations between cameras and tethered operation. Many of the other features do blur into desirable by enthusiasts like ultra fast frame rates, extreme high ISO, and advanced flash sync features. 3) controls optimized toward advanced users with practically no thought toward basic operation. but where I'd go after that I have no idea. I'd say that given that though, the M is at least approaching a professional camera. I think you're confusing your idea of a professional camera with what the event organisers are aiming at. What they're worried about is the sort of thing you see in the photographer's pit at Wimbledon - D810 and 5DIII cameras hanging off huge white 600mm lenses or full on video kit. I do think you also need to consider that a professional event photographer needs to capture the moment, which rather implies all singing, all dancing AF rigs. I'm not really sure that for events, "professional" (in the sense of what the organisers intend) and Leica M camera really go hand in hand. To my mind, NOT being a professional camera is a positive ... I have carried my M camera into many events which banned professional cameras (the Australian Tennis Open), and the security guards were simply not interested. Edited July 1, 2015 by IkarusJohn Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted July 1, 2015 Share #31 Posted July 1, 2015 Are you a professional photographer ( earn 100% of your income from photography )? Because I am and I have been putting some 400-500 images a day on my 240 daily on a high profile job since late last week and I highly consider my M to be a professional camera. I am using it along with my Nikon system but I am favoring the M. Pros decided what a pro camera is, no other opinion matters. I think that the most important features of a pro camera are reliability and consistency. I would never use the M for pro work for the following critical reasons: 1) Does not handle two flash cards. We all know flash cards are prone to failure. 2) Lockups (as discussed in several other threads in this forum). 3) RF may go out of calibration in less than harsh conditions. Note how I made no mention of AF, speed, pixels, customizability, size, weight and not even quality. These depend on personal preference and application field, while reliability and consistency apply to all professional photographers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 1, 2015 Share #32 Posted July 1, 2015 Are you a professional photographer ( earn 100% of your income from photography )? I don't think your definition of "professional photographer" makes sense... but the answer is no. Because I am and [...] I highly consider my M to be a professional camera. I am using it along with my Nikon system but I am favoring the M. Your choice, not mine.There are a few pro photographers using also the M, but I don't think the percentage is relevant. Pros decided what a pro camera is, no other opinion matters. Arrogance. Anyone can think like a pro, or be a pro (and better than many pros). It is just that most people have jobs that pay more than photography. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted July 1, 2015 Share #33 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Arrogance. Anyone can think like a pro, or be a pro (and better than many pros). It is just that most people have jobs that pay more than photography. Anyone huh...tell that to the client I am making 20 grand from this week.... But back on topic, thus far I think the M is a fantastic low key tool for anyone who wants what it offers, pros included. Edited July 1, 2015 by Ai_Print Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted July 1, 2015 Share #34 Posted July 1, 2015 Anyone huh...tell that to the client I am making 20 grand from this week.... Good for you ! But this is not the case for most people who are passionate about photography, and the money you earn as a pro does not make your opinion more respectable than theirs. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 1, 2015 Share #35 Posted July 1, 2015 But back on topic, thus far I think the M is a fantastic low key tool for anyone who wants what it offers, pros included. I don't think that's the topic at all, though I'm sure you're right. On topic, I don't think the average security guard gives a toss about how good the Leica is or how much money you make using it - he's been told to keep professional cameras out. By that, I think he means big dSLR cameras with big telephoto lenses, don't you? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 1, 2015 Share #36 Posted July 1, 2015 In days of 35mm my secret was a Minox GT Nowadays I find the X1 pretty unobtrusive. Put a light jacket on after slinging your camera over your shoulder and pulled behind your hip, Nothing seen, nothing refused! Be sensible, be inventive. I once saw a guy with an oxygen tank on a small trolley, little airlines over his ears to his nose, once he sat down the top came off the oxygen bottle, a whisky flask and a very well used 35mm RF appeared.. --- Or you could approach the Promoters and tell them you are doing a special project to benefit for your local school, that works.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sml_photo Posted July 1, 2015 Share #37 Posted July 1, 2015 I don't think that's the topic at all, though I'm sure you're right. On topic, I don't think the average security guard gives a toss about how good the Leica is or how much money you make using it - he's been told to keep professional cameras out. By that, I think he means big dSLR cameras with big telephoto lenses, don't you? Bravo! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted July 1, 2015 Share #38 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I don't think that's the topic at all, though I'm sure you're right. On topic, I don't think the average security guard gives a toss about how good the Leica is or how much money you make using it - he's been told to keep professional cameras out. By that, I think he means big dSLR cameras with big telephoto lenses, don't you? Yeah, I just called the guy out because he was throwing the M under the bus and came off like he knew what pros use or not. What camera a pro decides to use or not is way off topic, so lets keep it on topic then, right? Edited July 1, 2015 by Ai_Print 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 1, 2015 Share #39 Posted July 1, 2015 I guess the assumption is that the prohibition is against "professional cameras", rather than professional photographers! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted July 1, 2015 Share #40 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Just now I remembered that I had to surrender my M9 at the door in some Vegas show once. Not only mine but NO camera was allowed... except the smartphone cams. And they do not like you taking pics of gambling table too but if you just shoot one or two quietly and move on then nobody cares. Edited July 1, 2015 by jmahto Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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