2 new digital cameras: Ideas for the Leica developers?

[sjöbjörn]

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Since some time ago I read contributions in this forum and enjoy the skillfulness of the people around here. As it has been said that also the Leica people read this forum, I would like to share my ideas for 2 Leica cameras asking you for your comments. (Well, I understand that the Leica people are busy with their tasks, but still..., and please excuse for writing much)

 

First of all, Leica stands for long lasting high quality for me, and that is would I would like to have. (Therefore it would be great with a modular system, that would for example allow to get an update from Leica by exchanging the sensor and processor. )

 

The first camera I would like to see is something like a merger between the digilux 2 and D-lux 3. It should be a camera that outperformes competitors like Canon G7, nikon P5000 and should be about that compact.

 

So, the camera should have:

 

• Great image quality (more important than more pixels, i.e. 6-8 Mpix could be enough)
  
• fast (e.g. autofocus)
  
• O.I.S.
  
• robust (water resistant)
  
• real viewfinder showing aperture and shutter + focus (optical would be great, )
  
• AA-batteries as option (for us who are travelling)
  
• for example 28-110 mm (converted to 24*36mm)
  
• handling like e.g. V-lux (zoom and focus ring, shutter/aperture wheel)
  
• SD card
  

 

The second camera would be an improved V-Lux 1 (although I might buy it). Except for the current properties, it should have:

• Improved image quality (although I have seen great shots in the Internet, you can also read about some image quality problems, like in the DC-Tau testing protocols (in German).
  
• use AA batteries, (or such rechargable).
  
• Be water resistant
  
• It should be faster (again, I have not tested it, but read about the autofocus that could be faster).
  
• More wide angle (but as I also like bird-photos, I am not sure what is more important, maybe something like 30-360 mm?)
  
• More compact if possible (without compromising quality). For example the Sony H5 has about the same zoom range, but is more compact
  

 

Would be interesting to get your comments!

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[carstenw]

The first camera idea sounds neat. Perhaps a 4/3 sensor, ie. half as large as full frame, but with a 35-70 zoom, to replace the CM. I find it hard to envision a decent 28-100 or more zoom, with a decent sensor, at a reasonable price, with great quality. It seems like too many requests to fit into one camera.

[asabet]

The first camera I would like to see is something like a merger between the digilux 2 and D-lux 3. It should be a camera that outperformes competitors like Canon G7, nikon P5000 and should be about that compact.

 

So, the camera should have:

 

• Great image quality (more important than more pixels, i.e. 6-8 Mpix could be enough)
  
• fast (e.g. autofocus)
  
• O.I.S.
  
• robust (water resistant)
  
• real viewfinder showing aperture and shutter + focus (optical would be great, )
  
• AA-batteries as option (for us who are travelling)
  
• for example 28-110 mm (converted to 24*36mm)
  
• handling like e.g. V-lux (zoom and focus ring, shutter/aperture wheel)
  
• SD card
  

 

I would be on board with this, but what I *really* want is just the Digilux 2 as is with a more modern sensor and more reliable autofocus. I'm not that pressed though. The D2 is excellent as is.

[Riley]

The first camera I would like to see is something like a merger between the digilux 2 and D-lux 3. It should be a camera that outperformes competitors like Canon G7, nikon P5000 and should be about that compact.

 

So, the camera should have:

 

• Great image quality (more important than more pixels, i.e. 6-8 Mpix could be enough)
  
• fast (e.g. autofocus)
  
• O.I.S.
  
• robust (water resistant)
  
• real viewfinder showing aperture and shutter + focus (optical would be great, )
  
• AA-batteries as option (for us who are travelling)
  
• for example 28-110 mm (converted to 24*36mm)
  
• handling like e.g. V-lux (zoom and focus ring, shutter/aperture wheel)
  
• SD card
  

the are some areas where the concept needs some work

 

You have to think about who and what the camera would be used for. You might suggest high quality travel camera, or even a backup camera for another format.

 

The thinking behind pocketable cameras is, you can put them in a weatherproof pocket when it rains. Weatherproofing adds considerably to the cost of a camera, and means O ring seals on controls, and some tiresome work around the lens.

 

The lens itself is nominated at around 4x, which is a little larger than the more usual 3x. Which would mean it would probably suffer at the wide angle end with distortion, barreling. Such a lens makes the camera more obtrusive, where a collapsible would make it easier to carry. That is where the D-Lux and the Sigma DP1 have gone, although the collapsible element on DP1 has left the camera with too tight an aperture.

 

4/3rds is an obvious format for such use because it will help keep lens length relatively small IF the zoom is moderate, otherwise you need to resort to a smaller sensor and where 2/3" sensors are no longer available it would mean going to 1/1.8" or 1/2.5" which are dogged with high noise and offer zero advantage on the current position.

 

You dont mention a viewfinder in detail at all, where as Sigma found out in their research, users of the type expect to find an OVF. They since added the option of an accessory finder in the hot-shoe. Since the zoom they have is digital only this works out ok. Zooms create major problems for an OVF, this is why D2 had an EVF, not one of its most heralded features. OTOH, a fixed focal around 35mm EFL would allow a simple but size generous OVF with no focus mechanism necessary because of the use of AF.

 

To be successful, the VF requires the most thought, as it ties with lens type and use, these are primary issues for such a concept. There is no doubt that a 28-90mm zoom is commonly thought ideal, but it is very difficult to integrate into a camera that doesnt end up being more expensive than the dSLR it really replaces. In the end, keeping to cost margins is vital.

[krabat]

I would be on board with this, but what I *really* want is just the Digilux 2 as is with a more modern sensor and more reliable autofocus. I'm not that pressed though. The D2 is excellent as is.

 

I agree. An improved Digilux 2 would do for me, a bigger chip (4/3?) with higher ISO speed, a RAW buffer, better EVF, faster AF, the lens of same quality, and that would be enough.

 

Regards, Peter.

[sjöbjörn]

Congratulations to those of you who have a D2! It is surely a great camera from all that is reported , but I hestitate to buy one 2nd hand, especially for the sensor issues. An improved version of it would be great, of course, especially with those features you mentioned. I would like it a bit more compact, though.

 

What I was thinking about is a camera that could always be carried, thus it should be compact. But it should not compromise on the handling part or image quality. (Which I understand is great on the D2) A fast and "right" AF is of course crucial.

 

When I set up the list, I was a bit inspired by the Sony V-3 which I owned. It is quite compact and has a 4-times zoom with a reasonable maximum aperture ( 2.8-4). Something like that (with manual zoom) would be nice on a compact Leica. I am not sure how much image quality can be improved with a small sensor.

Also, the v-3 has an optical viewfinder that adjusts while zooming (you get what you see more or less), but what I missed was the information of aperture and shutter speed and focus (i.e. a light showing when centre is in focus) in the viewfinder. So, it should be possible to have such viewfinder at a reasonable cost?

 

Of course the list of what I would like to see would probably make the cameras more expensive, to make them water resistant for example. I do not have enough knowledge to assess what is possible and what not, but expressed what would help me to get an optimum photographic tool from a company that I trust! Also, AA batteries would be a great help, as they are almost everywhere available when it is not possible to charge your batteries.

 

Kind regards,

 

Uwe

[krabat]

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Uwe, you mention some important points.

 

Yes, I would also be pleased if a "new improved DL2" would be a little bit more compact. However, it should NOT be on the cost of image quality and handling, so I rather would stick on the present status. The truth is that I was a little bit startled when I saw the DL2 for the very first time in the shop, because it appeared so big compared to the "usual" small digital cameras. Two minutes later, when I had it in my hands, all concerns regarding the size were gone...

 

And yes, the sensor. Although not having data on it, I am convinced that the lens of the DL2 could easily cope with a bigger sensor having a higher resolution. So, 8 megapixels should be possible with a bigger sensor. Of course, a wider zoom range would be favourable, too. If it should be a 4-times zoom, then up to 112 mm. In each case, however, the initial focal length of 28 mm should not be given up, and the aperture of 2.0 at 28 mm is also a great thing.

 

Regarding the viewfinder, an EVF would do in my opinion. Just improve it with regard to resolution and brightness in darker situation, and it would be fine for me. In particular because it offers the opportunity of magnification during manual focussing, and because it displays all necessary information if desired.

 

I use the rear display of the DL2 only in rare cases. Maybe, besides ignoring autofocus, this is the reason why the DL2 battery is working such a long time in my hands. With a replacement battery in my bag or jacket, I never had the feeling that I would need other types of batteries. Well, of course AA compatibility would be an option...

[zapp]

You would have to start from a Panasonic camera.

Most of what you ask for basically exists - just image quality is a problem in compact cameras. Maybe the Sigma DP1 has something new to offer here.

[AnotherSmurf]

That first idea sounds great, specifically wide-angle and optical viewfinder. There have been several Leica/Panasonic cameras which I'd have bought if only they had optical viewfinders. The digital camera market seems to have pretty much segmented into DSLRs and point-and-shoot compacts, with very little in between. (The G7 seems to have the right idea, but then things like lack of RAW make it seem like a halfhearted effort at best.)

[krabat]

Maybe the Sigma DP1 has something new to offer here.

 

Well, maybe. However, it does not offer the very good DL2 lens.

 

I am so glad that I have got the DL2...

[elansprint72]

I own a D2 and a V-Lux 1; if I could combine the functionality of the D2 with the body of the V-Lux with a lens ranging from 24mm to 420mm that would do for me. No need to change lenses and admit dust; sensible manual focus operation instead of the daft "round and round" V-Lux thing: perfect!

However; nothing compares to the ergonomics of a Pentax MX, whatever the price.

[hankg]

I think Leica should have one fixed lens digital compact. Probably a f/2 40mm equivilent with an excellent fixed optical viewfinder. A sort of digital CM. A 1.5x or 4/3 chip with raw that is actually usable.

 

It could have a zoom lens cousin with no optical viewfinder. I don't see how you get a quality optical finder at this size and pricepoint for a zoom camera.

[sjöbjörn]

I own a D2 and a V-Lux 1; if I could combine the functionality of the D2 with the body of the V-Lux with a lens ranging from 24mm to 420mm that would do for me. No need to change lenses and admit dust; sensible manual focus operation instead of the daft "round and round" V-Lux thing: perfect!

However; nothing compares to the ergonomics of a Pentax MX, whatever the price.

 

That would of course be great! For me, a 30-390 would do as well (maybe less challenging).

 

Is the manual focus of the D2 much better than in the V-lux? What is the difference?

 

Otherwise it seems that several persons here would like to see an improved D2. I think that would be a bit Leica-like and also, it could cut the costs for developing somewhat. (Also, some production equipment could be re-used).

[krabat]

Pete wrote about the V-Lux.

My Leica dealer told me that it has a smaller sensor than the DL2 has, although the DL2 has just 5 Mill. Pixels instead the V-Lux's 10 Millions! Is that true? I was a little bit surprised, and I would like to know how aggressive the noise reduction must be in the V-Lux.

[MJLogan]

Pete wrote about the V-Lux.

My Leica dealer told me that it has a smaller sensor than the DL2 has, although the DL2 has just 5 Mill. Pixels instead the V-Lux's 10 Millions! Is that true? I was a little bit surprised, and I would like to know how aggressive the noise reduction must be in the V-Lux.

 

The V-Lux has a 1/18" sensor; the D2 has a 2/3" sensor, Not a huge difference in surface area, but with twice the pixels in the somewhat smaller area, there's bound to be a downside. There was a great piece in LFI last November testing the M8, D3 and V-Lux 1. It used to be online someplace, but I can't find it now.

 

People keep wishing that superzooms would get larger sensors, but it's the small sensor size that makes compact superzooms physically possible. Bigger sensor = bigger lens = bulkier camera = why not just get a DSLR?

[bernd_muc]

I would be on board with this, but what I *really* want is just the Digilux 2 as is with a more modern sensor and more reliable autofocus.

Well, I'm pretty new to the Leica "family" with my recently bought D-Lux 3 and had to look up the Digilux 2 first (just knowing about the Digilux 3 which is a total different thing, obviously).

 

That said, I'd like to chime in on an enhanced Digilux 2 as a D-Lux 4 . The thing I really miss on the D-Lux 3 is a flash connector (which the DL2 has), but I like the 10 MPix widescreen sensor. So I'd also go along with the wish for a larger sensor (4/3 or APS-C) which still would offer a 10 MPix 16:9 mode (so probably something like 14 MPix 4:3 sensor?) - but only if noise isn't a problem at such a pixel density; otherwise, less pixels would be okay, too. It is nice, though, to be able to "dive" into many pixels and cut out something specific in Photoshop.

 

Where's the sweetspot pixel-size-wise anyway? 4/3 sensors are quite large in comparison to the regular sensors, so one would think that 13 or 14 MPix shouldn't be a problem regarding noise (but I guess that I am wrong here? ).

 

The D-Lux 3 's 4x zoom is nice, too, but actually I would prefer 3 or 4 fixed focal lengths (a "Quad-Elmar"-alike?), again, if such a thing would make sense technically.

 

And yes, a large RAW buffer would be nice, too.

 

Bernd

[zapp]

Well, maybe. However, it does not offer the very good DL2 lens.

 

I am so glad that I have got the DL2...

 

It is not a zomm lens - everything else we do not know since the camera is not out yet and nobody tested it.

 

The wide angle V-Lux is a simple marketing trick. It only works in wide 16:9 mode and uses the image circle for a wider image in this setting - simple geometry. Still in 4:3 or 3:2 format the same lens is a lot less wide - also simple geometry. Unless you print and view at 16:9, you have no benefit of this so called unique wide angle feature.

[Riley]

It is not a zomm lens - everything else we do not know since the camera is not out yet and nobody tested it.

 

The wide angle V-Lux is a simple marketing trick. It only works in wide 16:9 mode and uses the image circle for a wider image in this setting - simple geometry. Still in 4:3 or 3:2 format the same lens is a lot less wide - also simple geometry. Unless you print and view at 16:9, you have no benefit of this so called unique wide angle feature.

 

i think you meant D-Lux yes ?

and you dispense to quickly this technical innovation as a 'marketing trick'

it may well be simple geometry, but its a lot more complicated at the sensor level

thats why native 16x9 view cameras are to date somewhat rare

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[salvatore]

I think Leica should have one fixed lens digital compact. Probably a f/2 40mm equivilent with an excellent fixed optical viewfinder. A sort of digital CM. A 1.5x or 4/3 chip with raw that is actually usable.

 

It could have a zoom lens cousin with no optical viewfinder. I don't see how you get a quality optical finder at this size and pricepoint for a zoom camera.

 

I want one of these...mmmm, better two: one silver and one black.

[NZDavid]

First idea is good. Canon seems to have got it right with its G series. Unfortunately all new Leica compacts are merely rebadged Panasonics. Ricoh G series is also an excellent design and more "Leica-like" than the Panasonics.

 

A new Leica compact dhould have three qualities:

 

* Top quality

 

* Simple

 

* Compact.

 

Really simple analog controls like the Digilux 2. Digilux 3 looks good but is too big and has sprouted too many fiddly menus and buttons.

 

Eliminate barrel distortion at the wide end of compact zooms. How about a Leica version of the Ricoh GR-D. Optical viewfinder or at least an accessory shoe for a separate finder.