Doc Henry Posted June 15, 2015 Share #21 Posted June 15, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do you have a darkroom? If not, start building that first and find out if you like it for your relation with your wife, if you have one Yes Otto thank you for reminding me . I was just going to talk about it if I have questions about my last post. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2830703 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2833646 The pictures that come out of the enlarger on "silver salts" photographic paper have a nuance that does not have photos printed in ink jet (black and gray better on photographic paper), logic because just for the principle of printing , that is not at all the same process . http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2834382 Best regards Henry Otto, for your question about space, I acknowledge that having a home, it may be useful and I'm lucky but a well-appointed bath room (with folding shelf) can also be transformed into laboratory ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 15, 2015 Posted June 15, 2015 Hi Doc Henry, Take a look here Monochrom or MP (film) - Help needed. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
james.liam Posted June 15, 2015 Share #22 Posted June 15, 2015 You can still wear your sandals and eat muesli, here is a recipe for Caffenol developer 1000ml (1l) Water 24g Washing soda 20g Vitamin C 45g Instant coffee Steve I have always wondered about this 'Caffenol'. Have you tried it? Are the results comparable to, say, lab-processed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 15, 2015 Share #23 Posted June 15, 2015 Three facts and two observations that might help you make your decision: Facts 1. My six-month-old M(240) after laughably gentle use has suddenly developed a mis-aligned rangefinder - only place to realign it is Wetzlar. 2. Spoke to Mayfair a few minutes ago - Wetzlar is reportedly too busy exchanging corroded M9/MM/M-E sensors. My camera will need to spend **one and a half months** in Wetzlar waiting for its rangefinder to be realigned. No express service is available, even for a fee I'd gladly pay to have the camera back sooner. The guy at the Store asked me if I was aware of the M9 sensor corrosion -- I had to laugh. My M9 went down the path of part-exchange (for the mis-aligned M) for precisely this issue. 3. My film cameras (M3, M2, M6TTL, Barnacks going back to 1929) -- which unlike the M240 have been to the back of beyond in Turkey, among other places -- have never suffered from any issues, including rangefinder misalignment. Observations 1. No M(240) means a summer of film, literally the silver lining in this cloud. 2. Don't know how much longer my patience with modern Leica and its digital products will survive. How long would you put up with this crap? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted June 15, 2015 Share #24 Posted June 15, 2015 On the other hand my M7 (bought new) went back to Solms/Wetzlar four times for unsuccessful attempts at overcoming it's various gremlins before making a fifth and final trip. Its replacement has so far (more or less) behaved itself. On the digital front, my previous M9, my current M240 and X-Vario have all been faultless, as has my wife's 'C'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjcb Posted June 16, 2015 Share #25 Posted June 16, 2015 Hi all, First of all, I apologize for the very long post. Second, unfortunately, there is no way I could post this in both forums, the film and the digital forums. So I chose the digital and hope it will reach the film users too. Here we go: I am currently contemplating on getting a second body with which I will shoot only and exclusively B&W. I already have an M9. The main genre for the B&W would be fine art (including portraits), street and landscapes. I won't go through an endless description why B&W appeals to me. Let's just say there is something about B&W which sings a sweet song to my ears. So, I am having a hard time now what to choose: the new Monochrom (Typ 246) or an MP (silver)? Here's what goes through my mind for each of the cameras listed (both pro and cons): MP: 1. Film gives me butterflies to my stomach every time I think about it. I just have this feeling going through my body (like an electrical current) when I see myself going through the process of developing my own photographs, from processing the film to enlarging and seeing the picture for the first time on photo paper. There's something magical about this. 2. Film could be dead in a few years and I could find myself being stuck with a completely useless camera 3. Film won't be dead but it will be harder and harder and consequently more expensive to process it. 4. Potentially less lost frames vs digital, due to being more careful on the subject selection, composition, exposure etc. 5. The Mp is about half the price of a Monochrom. Monochrom: 1. It is a digital camera and it has all the perks of the digital medium, which we all know (instant feedback on composition, exposure etc.) 2. It potentially has a longer lifespan of the end result, which is the actual photograph, but this is not very important 3. Compared to film, it is cheaper to shoot 4. Compared to MP it is dependent on batteries. MP isn't. So, what would be your suggestion with respect to this? What would you choose? The MP or the Monochrom? Does any of you have both mediums? Thank you all for replying and for helping me in reaching a decision. Sincerely, Sebastian First, if you have the fund for a MM 246 then get it, you won't be sorry. In addition to satisfy you craving for film get yourself an M3 and develop your own film. M3's are relativly cheap and th3 .91X viewfinder is a joy to use as is the camera itself. There's just something about using a icon that's 60 years old... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 16, 2015 Share #26 Posted June 16, 2015 Three facts and two observations that might help you make your decision: Facts 1. My six-month-old M(240) after laughably gentle use has suddenly developed a mis-aligned rangefinder - only place to realign it is Wetzlar. 2. Spoke to Mayfair a few minutes ago - Wetzlar is reportedly too busy exchanging corroded M9/MM/M-E sensors. My camera will need to spend **one and a half months** in Wetzlar waiting for its rangefinder to be realigned. No express service is available, even for a fee I'd gladly pay to have the camera back sooner. The guy at the Store asked me if I was aware of the M9 sensor corrosion -- I had to laugh. My M9 went down the path of part-exchange (for the mis-aligned M) for precisely this issue. 3. My film cameras (M3, M2, M6TTL, Barnacks going back to 1929) -- which unlike the M240 have been to the back of beyond in Turkey, among other places -- have never suffered from any issues, including rangefinder misalignment. Observations 1. No M(240) means a summer of film, literally the silver lining in this cloud. 2. Don't know how much longer my patience with modern Leica and its digital products will survive. How long would you put up with this crap? Going back to Wetzlar for a RF adjustment ??? Not even the shop you bought it at offered you to do this? I do not have a M10 but several generations of digitals and analogues before it and have with every one of them maintained the RF myself when necessary. Once you learned how to do it, it is as easy as changing a car tire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2015 Share #27 Posted June 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am told that Mayfair have neither the tools nor the permission to readjust! The tolerances are so much smaller with a digital sensor that the small fix becomes a 1.5-month ordeal. I am seriously considering the option of keeping the camera misaligned and focusing through the EVF exclusively. At this pace, the concept of the digital rangefinder seems unsustainable, an endangered species. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 16, 2015 Share #28 Posted June 16, 2015 Al, the cameras I do myself are digitals. I understand that Leica improved the M10 RF by tightening tolerances of the mechanics further from the M9 model but the general way to calibrate it remains unchanged. It is crazy to think about shipping a Leica M for adjusting the RF, especially when this M has the capability of instantly checking against Liveview imaging (I wish the M8.2, M9 and MM had live view, making adjusting then even simpler). It's a pity, they make you jump these hoops. I hope you get a better turnaround than those quoted 1 1/2 months which is inexcusable for a little misalignment (a job they need less than 30min to do in the factory). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2015 Share #29 Posted June 16, 2015 Thanks, Dirk. I hope my experience gives the OP food for thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjcb Posted June 16, 2015 Share #30 Posted June 16, 2015 just thought that I'd reference this thread regarding rangefinder adjustment...I don't have this problem but if I ever do I'll try this....I'm a DIY'r kind of person. see post # 19 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13730-new-backfocus-thread-solution/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted June 16, 2015 Share #31 Posted June 16, 2015 On the other hand my M7 (bought new) went back to Solms/Wetzlar four times for unsuccessful attempts at overcoming it's various gremlins before making a fifth and final trip. Its replacement has so far (more or less) behaved itself. On the digital front, my previous M9, my current M240 and X-Vario have all been faultless, as has my wife's 'C'. My own recent experience is more balanced. Of the last 5 Leica cameras bought (brand new), 4 have been problematic at some point and required service – 2 digital and 2 film. The digitals both had sensor problems (a sensor crack and the other was replaced for corrosion). Of the film bodies, one was badly back-focussing out of the box and (I was told by Leica) had the RF "rebuilt". The other (my M-A bought last October) was suffering from an intermittent light leak and was replaced by Leica last week. All in all, not an entirely encouraging record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted June 16, 2015 Share #32 Posted June 16, 2015 4 out of 5 with issues is a dismal record. On the M7, I know a respected technician who thinks of this model as especially problematic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted June 16, 2015 Share #33 Posted June 16, 2015 I am told that Mayfair have neither the tools nor the permission to readjust! The tolerances are so much smaller with a digital sensor that the small fix becomes a 1.5-month ordeal. I am seriously considering the option of keeping the camera misaligned and focusing through the EVF exclusively. At this pace, the concept of the digital rangefinder seems unsustainable, an endangered species. Surely Leica in New Jersey can do this work with a much faster turn around as they would not be dealing with M9 corrosion issues at all since they do not have the ability to fix those. I really do want to get a Leica digital body again but this kind of stuff just makes me cringe. I told a Leica rep at breakfast over the weekend that they really need to actually come out with more things like the "Lenny Kravits" editions so they can take the profit and hire more repair techs to maintain this stuff in a manner a pro can depend on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePioneer Posted June 16, 2015 Share #34 Posted June 16, 2015 The Monochrom is a really awesome camera, but I shoot my M-A far, far more often than the Monochrom. Whenever I need a digital I typically grab my M9 (which has really been my go to digital since I bought it 3 years ago.) Unless something changes I'll be selling the Monochrom soon. Film is more work and somewhat slower, I will admit that. But if I really do need it fast I can shoot, develop and contact print in the morning. If someone else wants the results quick then I can scan and print in the afternoon. For me though the reality is quite a bit slower, and that really is the attraction. There is certainly a learning curve with film if you have experience only with digital. With that in mind you will certainly be up and running much faster with the Monochrom. But it is pretty straightforward. There are a lot of instruction videos out there and a number of people here and on other forums who are happy to help. You may want to be careful though. You could become addicted to film and find your digital cameras covered with cobwebs on the shelf a few years down the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 17, 2015 Share #35 Posted June 17, 2015 For me the M Monochrom (M9 based) was never about convenience or getting a quick shot rather then using film. For me it actually widened the possibilities film in 35mm simply cannot provide. When my mainly used camera was a M8.2 and then a M9, I still used pushed B&W film regularly simply because it performed better in low light with bright light sources. When the MM came around this superiority was over and the MM allows me to shoot lens further stopped down for more detail, allows me to deliberately underexpose and push in post processing to get beautiful highlights as with film yet with much more freedom in higher ISO speeds. With pushed Tri-X or Neopan, I usually would stop at ISO1600 and only in a pinch would push the film to ISO 3200. With the MM I have absolutely no reservation to shoot al night long at ISO 3200 and get fantastic files. Also the detail of the MM is astonishing, delivering so much more detail even at those high ISO speeds, 35mm film simply cannot provide in any flavor. To get the detail comparable to the MM in how the files look and fine detail is retained I would have to shoot ISO 400 120 film (yet understandably couldn't do so in low light). THIS is what the MM is for me, not a convenience factor or some romance I still have with film. Don't get me wrong, I still use and love film, yet the MM has significantly slimmed down the window I would prefer film over digital (MM that is). The OP sounded in his opening post to very much romanticize the use of film and stated rather etherial bullet points why he would like to use film. As such I would expect a healthy dose of disappointment when this is not met with hard, good results after starting to shoot film. A Leica MM entirely circumvents this issue if the OP is truly dedicated to monochrome imaging exclusively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted June 17, 2015 Share #36 Posted June 17, 2015 I agree with what Dirk said about the romanticism vs. results of film. I am in the process of preparing a black and white exhibition of both film and digital images (all printed digitally), and they each have their own look. I would strongly recommend the MM to begin with. Later on add an M6 and see how you like the process, then you can still trade up to an M-A or some fancy special edition. Alternatively, start out with a used M6 and try that out for a couple of months. It will probably cost no more than the price of one battery for the MM in depreciation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alun Posted June 18, 2015 Share #37 Posted June 18, 2015 red_dot, Others have said it better and more thoroughly...and it's your money and your choice etc etc... And yet I found I had to go back to your original post and read it again to make sure that I had grasped its central point -- that you do already have an M9. To my mind (and as I have said, it's your money etc etc) you seem to be trying to scratch the (sometimes considerable) itch of truly getting to grips with B&W photography....by going shopping! Tread lightly. Use what you have. Enjoy doing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted June 19, 2015 Share #38 Posted June 19, 2015 "MP: 1. Film gives me butterflies to my stomach every time I think about it. I just have this feeling going through my body (like an electrical current) when I see myself going through the process of developing my own photographs, from processing the film to enlarging and seeing the picture for the first time on photo paper. There's something magical about this. 2. Film could be dead in a few years and I could find myself being stuck with a completely useless camera." red_dot Your No 1. makes anything worthwhile. Your No. 2 is invalid as a key point. Film in a freezer will outlast your life time. When you discover that film is no longer manufactured, buy as much as you might need for the rest of your life. It will keep and probably rise dramatically in value as it becomes sought after by those that want to create art. Unless you're using cameras for volume commercial reasons, the cost of film and self-processing will never rise to equal the cost of depreciation of digital cameras. After 5 years, a tidy used MP will be worth more than you paid for it. A digital M will be worth about 1/3 of what it cost new. One day, digital capture and processing may be able to emulate film, which many people myself included strive for, but it hasn't happened yet and I personally doubt that it ever will. That's not to say that it doesn't satisfy the needs of the majority of users. It does, and it may satisfy you completely. Only you can come to a conclusion on this issue. I love viewing 4x5 images and recently sold my MM to buy a large format camera, lenses and developing equipment only to realise once again that, regardless of the results I cherish, the use of it may be too demanding and too restrictive for my preferred way of shooting. Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted June 19, 2015 Share #39 Posted June 19, 2015 Yes Otto thank you for reminding me . I was just going to talk about it if I have questions about my last post. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2830703 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2833646 The pictures that come out of the enlarger on "silver salts" photographic paper have a nuance that does not have photos printed in ink jet (black and gray better on photographic paper), logic because just for the principle of printing , that is not at all the same process . http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?p=2834382 Best regards Henry Otto, for your question about space, I acknowledge that having a home, it may be useful and I'm lucky but a well-appointed bath room (with folding shelf) can also be transformed into laboratory ! I fully agree with you Henry. I just advised the OP to start with investments at the end of the production process. This is far less frustrating then starting with a camera. Likewise I would not jump from 18Mp to 24Mp in digital, before I upgraded my Mac, to prevent frustrations in coming to fine endresults. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted June 20, 2015 Share #40 Posted June 20, 2015 Hi , if you have some minutes look at these links and make your choice : MM or MP -M-A : Digital they are creating impotent photographers http://www.thephoblographer.com/2015/03/03/digital-cameras-creating-impotent-photographers/#.VYTsYFJhGUS Long live film: A guide how to shoot SP on a film Leica http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2014/09/02/a-guide-on-how-to-shoot-street-photography-on-a-film-leica-or-rangefinder/ How I've gone back to shooting film... and why you should too https://fstoppers.com/education/why-ive-gone-back-shooting-filmand-why-you-should-too-30630 How to choose a M rangefinder http://mfphotography.ca/blog/2014/3/20/how-to-choose-a-film-leica-m-rangefinder Thanks Gary and Otto for your last posts. Best Henry and I add this link the race for pixels that's enough http://www.cnet.com/news/olympus-12-megapixels-is-enough-for-most-folks/ no dusts , no scratch on sensors ... and no stress ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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