Matlock Posted June 16, 2015 Share #21 Posted June 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I appreciate that your experience of viewfinder flare is at the extreme end of the scale. But 'one swallow does not make a Spring', and neither does one person's particular way of working make viewfinder fixes necessary. Perhaps somebody reads an off the cuff remark about viewfinder flare and repeats it out of context, then two more read that, and before long you get all and sundry worrying about viewfinder flare, and worse than that people who do own an M6 become panicked about it, all for a 'problem' that may or may not ever affect them. It doesn't take long on the internet for minor idiosyncrasies to be inflated into major problems based on the individual or the 'I' principle, just look at almost any thread at the top of any camera forum. Steve I fully agree. I read at one point of someone complaining about some aspects of a certain camera. This sparked a heated debate, both for and against this particular camera. When someone asked what was the main point of concern of the OP, he responded that he would explain when he took delivery of the camera (not a Leica I hasten to add). For what it's worth, I have never experienced any viewfinder flare problems with any of my Leicas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 16, 2015 Posted June 16, 2015 Hi Matlock, Take a look here M6 advice: are late examples improved, better?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted June 16, 2015 Share #22 Posted June 16, 2015 I have repeatedly seen this viewfinder flare on the M6TTL. However, though annoying when it happens, it is a minor problem. A slight shift of the camera will rectify the situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted June 16, 2015 Share #23 Posted June 16, 2015 It is very individual how much one is bothered by RF patch flare/white-out. And, to be fair, if one reads online reports (and ignores views by those who just express opinions without personal experience), it does appear to affect both the M6 and the TTL. Unfortunately the flare always catches me in the worst situations. One such situation is when shooting close up portraits with hot lights - the lights will induce finder flare and apart from the subject there is nowhere else to focus and recompose that close up. Next comes that you might be using a longer, faster lens which already demands all your concentration on focussing precisely, … This is also my experience, with my M6TTL. I tried for the longest time to find workarounds, like suggested above, but the flare would be almost ever-present, provoked even by fairly faint indoor lights. So the VF upgrade was very much worth it for me. Some don't feel this is troublesome at all, and I'm very happy for them, but I couldn't live with a VF that flared as much as mine did. I was just this morning at a conference where among others Secretary Albright and Professor Gambari spoke. I used the 75 Summicron (I'm still trying to like this lens and I won't give up) and 90 Elmarit-M. The conference was in the Peace Palace's Academy building and the panel of speakers was on a stage, on each side of which were very large bright windows. Without the flare fix it would have been impossible for me using my TTL to focus these longer lenses. The trouble is, of course, that one won't know until one tries a camera if it will flare and how affected one will be by it. Dirk's suggestion of paying a bit more ex abundanti cautela is, imo, very sound. Br Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 16, 2015 Share #24 Posted June 16, 2015 I appreciate that your experience of viewfinder flare is at the extreme end of the scale. But 'one swallow does not make a Spring', and neither does one person's particular way of working make viewfinder fixes necessary. Perhaps somebody reads an off the cuff remark about viewfinder flare and repeats it out of context, then two more read that, and before long you get all and sundry worrying about viewfinder flare, and worse than that people who do own an M6 become panicked about it, all for a 'problem' that may or may not ever affect them. It doesn't take long on the internet for minor idiosyncrasies to be inflated into major problems based on the individual or the 'I' principle, just look at almost any thread at the top of any camera forum. Steve Steve, I think you are taking this a bit off-proportion. The flare of the M6 viewfinder of all ages is well reported and accepted by people who have use Leica M6 bodies next to either older M bodies with better finders or later improved finders. This is an easily recognizable issue with the camera that in most situations does not get so bad to the extend of the camera being unable, yet in certain situations (some people stumbling more often into than others) it becomes so bad, that the RF focussing patch completely "whites out" and any readjusting and working around it is either annoying or in a given situation not possible. The M6 was my first Leica M - I have a very late copy of a M6 classic in truly beautiful condition and still use it occasionally. When I got my second Leica M, a M8.2 the difference in finder quality was so apparent that wish I had bought that second hand Leica MP I later got as my third body instead of the M6 as my first Leica M in the first place. I mention this issue to anyone who might decide on a certain M6 or even stands to decide between a M6 or another film based M with a better finder, or even an upgraded M6. After all this is not "focus shift" we are talking about ;-) The factory stock M6 viewfinder being inferior over M3, M2, M4, MP and later M7 and all digital M finders is a fact. 0.85x finders with their higher magnification are worse than standard finders. The Leica M6 is otherwise a fantastic camera which stands short in nothing to other more expensive M bodies. I like my M6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 16, 2015 Share #25 Posted June 16, 2015 I can guarantee you, if the temperature gets over 25 Centigrade, that piece of polarizing foil will drop off. I have it on an M7 and it has never moved. Perhaps there were variations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironringer Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share #26 Posted June 17, 2015 Gentlemen (and ladies?) I thank you for continued contributions to this interesting topic. Your collective experiences provide a valuable education. While we keep our eyes out for a well-maintained M6 (possibly a TTL) for my son, I ask a cosmetic question: how does the black finish of an M6 wear over time, compared to the chrome finish, and compared to a black enamel finish? My son admires the wear patterns of black enamel Leicas (see M4 and MP pictures attached). As a professional filmmaker and photographer he would like to own a "battle worn and scarred" brassy camera, as long as it works properly. So your experience of black M6 finish wear (maybe with pictures?) will be useful. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246260-m6-advice-are-late-examples-improved-better/?do=findComment&comment=2836453'>More sharing options...
madNbad Posted June 17, 2015 Share #27 Posted June 17, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Only a few of the last M6 special editions were made with the brass top plates allowing for the black lacquer finish. Most of the M6 (including the TTL) were made with zinc top plates. Both the anodized black finish and the silver finish over the zinc tends to show wear marks as gray or just a dullness of the finish. The Millennium, late LHSA, Dragon and the 999 are just about the only M6 editions with a lacquer finish. If he really wants back paint over brass with a meter, get an MP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madNbad Posted June 17, 2015 Share #28 Posted June 17, 2015 Here's a late M6 TTL with oxidation. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246260-m6-advice-are-late-examples-improved-better/?do=findComment&comment=2836466'>More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 17, 2015 Share #29 Posted June 17, 2015 Only a few of the last M6 special editions were made with the brass top plates allowing for the black lacquer finish. Most of the M6 (including the TTL) were made with zinc top plates. Both the anodized black finish and the silver finish over the zinc tends to show wear marks as gray or just a dullness of the finish. The Millennium, late LHSA, Dragon and the 999 are just about the only M6 editions with a lacquer finish. If he really wants back paint over brass with a meter, get an MP. Very sound advice! When brassed black paint is what is wanted this is the best route to go. The MP is a modern camera - even the oldest samples are going to be great users for another few years before needing attention (if properly treated). As with the M6 it works perfectly without batteries. The only real user related difference is that it's film rewind knob is the same classic slower to operate film rewind than the crank you find on the standard M6). Some of the oldest will have an eye piece that leaks dust into the viewfinder over the years - a design issue that is shared by contemporary M7 bodies and is rectified as an upgrade by Leica later on (my early M7 has received this eye piece upgrade at no cost when it was in for service and modification). If the usually stable cost of a second hand MP is too high for the budged, repainted and overhauled Leica M2 or M3 bodies are also great choices (albeit without meter and with the functional differences to later bodies as resetting of film counter, loading of film and finder differences go). Really beat up black repaint M2 bodies can be had for the budged of a good solid M6, yet personally I'd rather take that sorted M6 over a project camera, even if it is beautiful to look at (and I am a black paint on brass nut myself). You might be able to find a black paint Millennium M6 for about the same cost as a second hand black paint MP but personally I don't see why not taking the MP over the Millennium (the MP has the slightly improved finder and differs otherwise only cosmetically from the later MP). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGirton Posted June 17, 2015 Share #30 Posted June 17, 2015 Gentlemen (and ladies?) I thank you for continued contributions to this interesting topic. Your collective experiences provide a valuable education. While we keep our eyes out for a well-maintained M6 (possibly a TTL) for my son, I ask a cosmetic question: how does the black finish of an M6 wear over time, compared to the chrome finish, and compared to a black enamel finish? My son admires the wear patterns of black enamel Leicas (see M4 and MP pictures attached). As a professional filmmaker and photographer he would like to own a "battle worn and scarred" brassy camera, as long as it works properly. So your experience of black M6 finish wear (maybe with pictures?) will be useful. The M6 is zinc it doesn't age well, some hardened brass body fans might call it outright ugly. It will shift from black to a dirty silverish tone, if you are unlucky you will even get bubbles in the black chrome (never happened to me). So if your son loves the aging of brass / paint and wants a metered M you can only go with a M6 special edition like the LHSA, Millennium or some other ones, a MP or a à la carte M7. A used MP being the cheapest of those options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted June 17, 2015 Share #31 Posted June 17, 2015 The M6 is zinc it doesn't age well, some hardened brass body fans might call it outright ugly. It will shift from black to a dirty silverish tone, if you are unlucky you will even get bubbles in the black chrome (never happened to me). So if your son loves the aging of brass / paint and wants a metered M you can only go with a M6 special edition like the LHSA, Millennium or some other ones, a MP or a à la carte M7. A used MP being the cheapest of those options. Photographers think the M6 ages fine, I certainly do. It's the enthusiast crowd who is placing this stigma on the M6 which was by far one of the most prolific and heavily used Leicas ever in the pro realm. A good working M6, especially with the upgraded RF patch is about as Leica as it gets. I guess it all depends on what your priorities are, a camera you forget is in your hands as you turn out great work or one that has been made a virtual "Lenny Kravits" edition by years of use that you will never be able to claim authorship of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted June 17, 2015 Share #32 Posted June 17, 2015 The M6 is zinc it doesn't age well, some hardened brass body fans might call it outright ugly. It will shift from black to a dirty silverish tone, if you are unlucky you will even get bubbles in the black chrome (never happened to me). So if your son loves the aging of brass / paint and wants a metered M you can only go with a M6 special edition like the LHSA, Millennium or some other ones, a MP or a à la carte M7. A used MP being the cheapest of those options. Interesting. My M6TTL has been in regular use since 2001 and shows no sign of ageing. Also I have several friends with M6s and none have had any problems. It clearly can happen but I wonder if it has something to do with humidity or other location issues. It would be helpful to pinpoint the problem cameras and their location in the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 17, 2015 Share #33 Posted June 17, 2015 My M6 TTL had no problems when I had it for about seven years, nor has my M6 Classic any. And I live very close to the sea... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGirton Posted June 17, 2015 Share #34 Posted June 17, 2015 Photographers think the M6 ages fine, I certainly do. It's the enthusiast crowd who is placing this stigma on the M6 which was by far one of the most prolific and heavily used Leicas ever in the pro realm. A good working M6, especially with the upgraded RF patch is about as Leica as it gets. I guess it all depends on what your priorities are, a camera you forget is in your hands as you turn out great work or one that has been made a virtual "Lenny Kravits" edition by years of use that you will never be able to claim authorship of. I agree with you, the M6 is an amazing camera, I didn't say it isn't. It certainly is the most approachable because Leica built tons and it's the cheapest proper metered M. OP was asking specifically about aging of the M6 and asked if the M6 would age like the brass / paint examples that he showed, so I pointed him in the direction of those M's (M6 too) which do look like that after extensive use. Maybe you guys got the idea of "aging" wrong, of course your M6 "ages" when you use it a lot, but it's nothing bad. It's the patina on the camera, every ding and dent and scratch that a M will get when you really use it. It's not about the damn camera falling apart! By the way, saying people only shoot painted brass body M's just so they have a "Lenny Kravitz" Leica and that they turn out lesser work is pretty ridiculous. You should ask our friends in the MP thread how they feel about that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredR Posted June 18, 2015 Share #35 Posted June 18, 2015 Insofar as the limited number of zinc camera parts that have shown "bubbles," Leica likely solved the finish problem as one of the many improvements Leica introduces during ongoing production of camera models. Fred Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted June 18, 2015 Share #36 Posted June 18, 2015 Photographers think the M6 ages fine, I certainly do. It's the enthusiast crowd who is placing this stigma on the M6 which was by far one of the most prolific and heavily used Leicas ever in the pro realm. A good working M6, especially with the upgraded RF patch is about as Leica as it gets. I guess it all depends on what your priorities are, a camera you forget is in your hands as you turn out great work or one that has been made a virtual "Lenny Kravits" edition by years of use that you will never be able to claim authorship of. I fully agree - the M6 will do everything the MP will for a lower price (even with the VF upgrade). By all accounts it is tremendous value for money and a great entry into the realm of metered film Ms. About the second statement (and fwiw of course). Personally, I like black paint bodies and it is, simply, a function of always having used black cameras. My EOS cameras, in particular my 1N, have scratches and dings with metal showing. Same with my A-1. I have three black paint Leica bodies, a TTL Millennium, a Leica II and an M4. I use all more or less equally in fits and starts, among other things because my shooting preferences vary over time. I am responsible for all scratches and dings on the TTL and the II. In fact the other day I looked at photos of the II from when it was new (to me in 2011; it's from 1931). Let's just say it is not nearly as fine as it then was. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My M4, however, was used by a photojournalist here in the Netherlands and was scratched and very dinged when I bought it (for a great price as a consequence). I had it overhauled and since then it's been receiving more paint wear and scratches due to my own use (I don't baby my cameras but don't wreck them either). This camera is - and feels - as "mine" as the other two. Buying second-hand cameras is like relationships - everyone has a past. The fact that someone else had, held, used and put marks on the camera (a few of those verbs don't apply to relationships, though...) doesn't change my feeling that it is mine. Just my two Eurocents. Br Philip Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My M4, however, was used by a photojournalist here in the Netherlands and was scratched and very dinged when I bought it (for a great price as a consequence). I had it overhauled and since then it's been receiving more paint wear and scratches due to my own use (I don't baby my cameras but don't wreck them either). This camera is - and feels - as "mine" as the other two. Buying second-hand cameras is like relationships - everyone has a past. The fact that someone else had, held, used and put marks on the camera (a few of those verbs don't apply to relationships, though...) doesn't change my feeling that it is mine. Just my two Eurocents. Br Philip ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246260-m6-advice-are-late-examples-improved-better/?do=findComment&comment=2837359'>More sharing options...
Mijo Posted June 18, 2015 Share #37 Posted June 18, 2015 Ironringer - There's a black classic M6 with a MP finder that's been recently CLA up for sale on the Leica Store Miami's website right now. IMO, it's a bargain as I paid a couple hundred $ more for my classic and TTL M6s, purchased from CameraWest and B&H, and neither had been CLA'ed or had their finder replaced. I was actually looking for an M6 with a MP finder to replace my M6s but after searching around for several months gave up and bought a used MP instead, from the Leica Store Miami. FYI - I have no ties to the Leica Store Miami, just one of their happy customers. For whatever reason the Miami store seems to have lower prices on used gear than the other stores. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ai_Print Posted June 18, 2015 Share #38 Posted June 18, 2015 Ironringer - There's a black classic M6 with a MP finder that's been recently CLA up for sale on the Leica Store Miami's website right now. IMO, it's a bargain as I paid a couple hundred $ more for my classic and TTL M6s, purchased from CameraWest and B&H, and neither had been CLA'ed or had their finder replaced. I was actually looking for an M6 with a MP finder to replace my M6s but after searching around for several months gave up and bought a used MP instead, from the Leica Store Miami. FYI - I have no ties to the Leica Store Miami, just one of their happy customers. For whatever reason the Miami store seems to have lower prices on used gear than the other stores. Yeah...that's a good deal indeed. Notice the nice patina on it too, that lovely bronzing showing through a bit. I happen to really like that look..:-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironringer Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share #39 Posted June 18, 2015 Thank you Mijo for this suggestion (I have contacted the Miami Leica store) and others for more advice and comments about the M6 cameras. Since we are edging into used MP discussion, can MP owners and enthusiasts clarify what improvements it has had during its 12 years production cycle? Your guidance is appreciated. I remember reading that the MP metering system uses no adjustable potentiometers, and is calibrated during service using a computer to adjust settings. That sounds pretty neat and reliable. Moderator - should the MP improvements discussion be moved to its own topic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted June 19, 2015 Share #40 Posted June 19, 2015 The only improvement I can recall was a very, very minor one. Very early examples (together with contemporary M7 cameras) had a viewfinder eyepiece that would over time leak dust into the viewfinder more easily than former and later improved eyepieces. This would have been fixed by Leica as a free of charge improvement as the older cameras go through service. Apart from that I have never heard any issues or weak spots of the MP. There has been a slight change in cosmetics as how the ISO dial on the back looks like - can't recall the exact facts (search here on the forum for "Leica MP ISO dial" and you will surely find the two different versions). Personally I would just hunt for the best deal if you are looking for a MP and just check for the usual Leica M related defects upon first hands on - they are really solid, proven cameras. Now back to the discussion - apart from not offering you the wanted "brass" and the viewfinder (which is an easy fix), a Leica M6 will do everything a MP will do, look the part and feel the part. If those ~1000 USD price difference for a M6 or MP in comparable condition are more important than the brass, go for a M6! Actually the zinc alloy of the M6 does have one advantage not often talked about - it does feel lighter than a MP which can be an advantage in situation where you are loaded with luggage and like to just bring a light and very capable camera instead of lugging brass around for the pretty wear (I am nuts for black paint on brass Leica items myself so I can fully understand why one would want a black paint Leica M, yet I equally like my M6 too). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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