Time for Digilux 4

[krabat]

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I would be (very) satisfied with a D2 with higher ISO and 8 to 12 MP and slightly better AF.

 

It's a perfect camera otherwise for so many things.

 

The D3 is between two chairs for me...

Completely agree. And when we speak about improvements of the Digilux 2, then a RAW buffer should be mentioned, too. Well, and an improved EVF with a higher resolution - not difficult nowadays I dare to say.

[Douglas Folk]

Introducing a D4 as a re-worked D2, will only serve to canabalise Leica's entry level prosumer segment. Many here on this forum have proved that a PRO can make a living just using a D2. Leica needs us to be repeat customers, and if we want to remain part of the living Leica brand we should support this, by buying more Leica products..... hence the D3, M8, DMR ranges

 

 

I'm coming late to this discussion, but want to respond from another perspective to a very thoughtful analysis of Leica's digital strategy.

 

I purchased a D2 as my first "serious" digi-cam to use for architectural photography (my business) and nature photography (my passion). Admitting all the idiosyncracies noted in this forum, it has still been superior to anything else I considered and an absolute joy to use.

 

Unfortunately, I have recently purchased its successor after suffering a sensor failure (which I hope Leica will repair under its extended service policy for the D2). I could not bring myself to purchase a D3. It is too heavy, ugly, unbalanced, and far less elegant to operate than the D2 -- I don't care how good the image quality is. Moreover, after living with the D2's EVF and totally silent operation, I see absolutely no reason to go back to the "chunk" of a shutter and mirror moving aside when I press the shutter release.

 

The M8 is not really right for what I do, and costs far more than I care to invest at this time. What options do I have in the Leica line? I settled for a V-Lux 1 -- knowing it was a compromise -- because it was the only model that came close to addressing my needs. It has a lot of strengths--it will probably be even better for the nature photography--but it has been a compromise for my architectural photography. As I just started using it in the past week, I don't have a basis for comparison of image quality, but assume there will be trade-offs due to the smaller sensor and distortion inherent in a super-zoom design.

 

I recognize that the transition to 4/3rds standard requires redesigning lenses, camera body, etc., but I don't think the D3 got it right. There is a significant market opportunity for an updated D2. My analogy is to cell-phones. Manufacturers felt compelled to add features--cameras, music, web browser--that I don't want and don't use. I just want to make calls with my cell phone.

 

What the D2 does, it does extremely well. Encore, encore!!!

[Riley]

Not to slight D3 owners at all for it is a more capable camera, but I think we all lament the loss of a D2 follow up with a fixed lens zoom and better iso performance to iso800 and a flip LCD with improved EVF. A moderate increase in Mp with IS and a decent RAW buffer. It is a formula that is entirely feasible.

 

Lets deal with the V-Lux first, undoubtedly a camera ever more suited to nature, or street shooting using its tele than architecture. Its principle limitations are that it isnt wide enough without a wide converter, and its rather burdened by noise even at 100 iso in shadows (something not all that apparent in nature shooting)

 

You could acquire a good quality wide adapter like the Raynox .66x and get down to a worthwhile 24mm EFL, but my feeling is noise would play havoc. If you were intent on this type of camera the FZ30 Panasonic may prove to be of better value having less Mp and less noise (with less associated heavy use of NR of the Venus 3 engine and less need for it). Sadly there is no alternate Leica model for the FZ30.

 

To continue briefly on the D3 and perhaps other 4/3rds system cameras you really would benefit from the rather wonderful 11-22mm Olympus lens, and having said that, the E-510 with IS, relatively good iso800 performance, a bright finder would be a natural choice. With the option of moving to a 7-14mm lens offering a whole different perspective on your craft.

[sdommin]

Not to slight D3 owners at all for it is a more capable camera, but I think we all lament the loss of a D2 follow up with a fixed lens zoom and better iso performance to iso800 and a flip LCD with improved EVF. A moderate increase in Mp with IS and a decent RAW buffer. It is a formula that is entirely feasible.

 

I had to laugh a little when I saw this. Sony came up with exactly what you're looking for (except for the IS) in its DSC-R1 model. Its an excellent camera, which I still use today. Like Leica with the D2, Sony probably will not come out with a successor, because now they have their interchangeable lens "Alpha" series (more profit if you can sell 2 or more lenses per camera).

[Riley]

I had to laugh a little when I saw this. Sony came up with exactly what you're looking for (except for the IS) in its DSC-R1 model. Its an excellent camera, which I still use today. Like Leica with the D2, Sony probably will not come out with a successor, because now they have their interchangeable lens "Alpha" series (more profit if you can sell 2 or more lenses per camera).

 

sadly im not as persuaded by R1 as all that, while the IQ is good the thing is gigantic and i would be encouraging even D2v2 be smaller in all directions not larger

 

dSLRs are 11% by volume and 30% by cash contributions, P&S make up 70% of sales

R1 was nailed not only because it would take sales from A100, it just wasnt selling well

even D2/LC1 didnt sell all that well, the costs supported by very high pricing

 

As a personal perspective: Leica would be better off with the prescribed D2v2 than D3 or R10 because it would be cheaper to organise and build, and would sell better than either provided performance was up to spec. And it would be a timely camera for the market instead of a place somewhere behind.

[Jaifoto]

I bought a D2 when they first came out and had it for about a year, then sold it (before the sensor issues arose). I loved the simplicity of the camera, very intuitive, brought back memories of shooting film cameras with manual control being so easy. But in the end I found it limiting - fixed lens, EVF viewfinder, 5MP. So I purchased a Canon 5D system and had been using that for the last 2 years. And although I like the large files and low noise at high ISO, I found lugging around 3 large heavy lenses to be too much and missing the Leica look in my images. I wanted to simplify my system again so I sold off my 5D system and bought the D3 and couldn't be happier. I love the size (I'm 6'6" with large hands) and the reduced weight. But most of all, I found the camera that feels right in my hand, the controls (always shoot manual), the quality of the images. At first I wasn't sure if I would miss the 5D and regret it. But after a month of shooting, I find that I pick up my camera more than ever and have that creative wave surge back. Currently have the 14-50 f2.8 Leica kit lens and the 11-22 Olympus (great lens) - waiting for Leica to release the 50-150 lens next year (using the 40-150 f3.5 Olympus old version bought on ebay for $100 in the meantime).

[Iron Flatline]

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I've never owned either, but I have huge crush on the Digilux 3. I think it looks really cool. Not sure this contributed anything to this thread, but I needed to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for your time, we now return to our regularly-scheduled thread.

[Douglas Folk]

As a personal perspective: Leica would be better off with the prescribed D2v2 than D3 or R10 because it would be cheaper to organise and build, and would sell better than either provided performance was up to spec. And it would be a timely camera for the market instead of a place somewhere behind.

 

To diverge slightly from your analysis, do you think 4/3rds is the right direction to take for the future? I have read everything Leica published in its own magazine and understand the reasoning, but the new standard seems to account for the bulk of the kit lense on the D3. I realize sensor size has an direct impact on lens dimensions, but I'm still left to wonder how we got by all those years when we were attempting to focus the image on that even larger 35mm frame? Wouldn't a larger sensor also help to alleviate noise, as pixels would not be packed as densely?

[dogberry]

I have huge crush on the Digilux 3 ...

 

If you think they look cool Iron Flatline, just try holding one and shooting some pictures with it! The ergonomics are surprisingly nice for a camera that looks a bit like a metal house brick with a lens on the front. I find the Digilux 3 to be an incredibly versatile camera that is a joy to use and has superb image quality. I think the 4/3 system has a really bright future and the Digilux 3 is a great addition to the system. I purchased a couple of the excellent Olympus lenses (Zuiko 7-14 and Zuiko 50-200) to go with my PanaLeica 14-50 and now I have a 3-lens system with superb optics that covers the 35mm equivalent of a 14 - 400mm range of focal lengths.

[Riley]

To diverge slightly from your analysis, do you think 4/3rds is the right direction to take for the future? I have read everything Leica published in its own magazine and understand the reasoning, but the new standard seems to account for the bulk of the kit lense on the D3. I realize sensor size has an direct impact on lens dimensions, but I'm still left to wonder how we got by all those years when we were attempting to focus the image on that even larger 35mm frame? Wouldn't a larger sensor also help to alleviate noise, as pixels would not be packed as densely?

 

What I'm on about is what is best for Leica, not for me. I like 4/3rds i really do, i shoot an Oly for work and I am looking forward to more developments in the range. What i see about Leica makes me stop and think, I feel they have divided loyalties between the badged P&S cameras, the 4/3rds cameras, the R line, and the M line. And I think for a company their size they might do better to consolidate and deliver a knock-out camera based on their core skill base.

 

Look at M8, it has no rival, it sells well and has revitalised Leica. I just dont see D3 or for that matter L1 as big sellers, and Im suspicious that R10 wont be as competitive as all that with other big brand dSLRs, for it seems alas, it will be just another dSLR.

 

What I see with D2v2 is a golden opportunity to build a very marketable camera without much complication that has a good following without any rivals, and they could manufacture it themselves.

[rougewave]

This argument in "Time for Digilux 4" feels like serial dating. When I went to buy my Digilux 2, the dealer looked down his nose and suggested an M body. I told him I already owned one. I was looking for a different instrument. I love my Digilux 2. I hope Leica comes to love it as well. It needs support and the kind of long term commitment given to it's other world-class products. After buying my Digilux 3, I soon realized I had a steeper slope to climb for it's mastery. It's not as elegant as my other Leicas, but it has it's own features. The glass is great!! Although the form factor is larger than the D2, the body itself is not very heavy. What might really launch the D system is for Leica to offer a line of lenses analogous to the new Summarit-M lenses. As Leica states, "high performance lenses that deliver the best possible picture in any given situation...at an unusually good price-performance ratio". I'm hopeful. Ben

[Guest flatfour]

I will add my small pennyworth as a long time Leica user who now employs a Digilux 2 as well as an M6. Having very briefly used an M8 I think I value my Digilux 2 even more highly than previously. I am continually amazed by the quality of the pictures at ostensibly 5mp. The secret must be in the Vario-Summicron and the software. The EVF is a bit of a problem but I soon got used to it and now just accept it. Its only downside is the delay when moving to a very bright scene where there is a marked delay.Friends using Leicas and other cameras are equally surprised at the quality (I only print up to A3). So why did I look at the Digilux 3 ? I was tempted because of the interchangeability but I can still use my R5 for some pics. My idea of a big step forward for Leica would be a zoom Summicron to fit the M8. Then I might just be tempted. The Digilux 3 just didn't get me very excited.

[rsolomon]

so any news on a Digilux 4 ?

[jgriffter]

can anyone tell me if D3 has focus confirmation for

MF non 4/3rds lenses ?

 

L1 seems to be offered at very low prices lately

clearing for a new model ?

Hello

 

The Digilux 3 does have focus confirmation using non 4/3rd lenses and adapter. As does the L1. I use both all the time with leica R lenses (50/2, 90/2.8, 35/2.8, etc) and all will give the "green dot" confirmation. I have both cameras - great tools.

 

If I recall correctly, focus confirmation was a feature that was provided in the firmware update for both cameras.

[FastFashnReloaded]

Leica is in trouble after cease Digital Modul for R8/R9 cameras. The company is trying to hold R system alive by offering R-Adapter for Digilux 3. At that moment it's only move possible. But what's next. R10 will be available as soon as on Photokina 2008, I think.

So, maybe it's time for next iteration of Digilux camera (but not D system). Digilux 1 is a very good camera (I own one). Digilux 2 is a very good camera (I have missed purchase of this model to wait for Digilux with interchangeable lens). But Digilux 3 is a disaster, because of price and poor quality of optical viewfinder (and I have bought Pentax K10D - TIPA Awards 2007 for Best D-SLR Expert, but I am still Leica fan).

 

I disagree that the Digilux 3 or DMC L1 or E-330 was a disaster. Different yes.

 

 

 

Just because something isn't a me-to camera and doesn't get good recognition from say, some reviewer over at DP Review doesn't mean the product is a failure. We learn by doing. Sometimes we learn that people think that Live View is a worthless gadget, until Canon and Sony copy it...

 

Get what you like, and take pix. Who cares what a critic thinks? If he was an artist he wouldn't have time to be a critic.

[rivi1969]

as many other people suggests the best D4 would be an upgraded D2, or some kind of digital CM but that may never happen. Talking about the D3, well, I had the L1 and ended up hating it because it was far heavier than my Nikon D80 and even bigger with those huge (very sharp) Leica zoom and 25mm lenses. After that, I bought a D2 with the new sensor and a new R-D1 so finally I stop dreaming in the cameras that we may never see.

[ptomsu]

I actually think that FT will disappear after some years, same as APS film did. It was just another format, which actually nobody really needed.

 

The arguments for FT are dead already today if you look into what is achievable with normal ASPC size sensors. And these cameras are same size as FT's small cameras - look what Pentax offers.

 

Quality wise the larger APSC sensor size is far superior and if combined with the right lenses this can even achieve better results also in terms of optical IQ.

 

And Leica has never sown any serious interest in FT support so far. The Digilux3 is the best example for this. A rebranded xyz camera is not Leica - sorry. And the lack of support for PanaLeica glass from Leica is another bad example for their dedication to FT.

[goodbokeh]

as many other people suggests the best D4 would be an upgraded D2, or some kind of digital CM but that may never happen. Talking about the D3, well, I had the L1 and ended up hating it because it was far heavier than my Nikon D80 and even bigger with those huge (very sharp) Leica zoom and 25mm lenses. After that, I bought a D2 with the new sensor and a new R-D1 so finally I stop dreaming in the cameras that we may never see.

 

Sounds like the new Olympus E420 & 25mm pancake is for you! BTW, I just love my Digilux 3!

[Riley]

I actually think that FT will disappear after some years, same as APS film did. It was just another format, which actually nobody really needed.

 

so what you are saying is that APSC AND 4/3rds will be leaving us ?

because thats absolutely doubtful ad quite beside reality

The arguments for FT are dead already today if you look into what is achievable with normal ASPC size sensors. And these cameras are same size as FT's small cameras - look what Pentax offers.

 

achievable, and being done are 2 different approaches apparently

while Nikon has made good progress with D3, its APSC D300 isnt necessarily the better of E3. It has the feature of better high iso performance, but it comes at a cost of iso100 performance, and it lacks the UWA lens suite that D3 has access too

Quality wise the larger APSC sensor size is far superior and if combined with the right lenses this can even achieve better results also in terms of optical IQ.

 

i figure 'far' superior is a long long call, even a tad optimistic if factual at all

And Leica has never sown any serious interest in FT support so far. The Digilux3 is the best example for this. A rebranded xyz camera is not Leica - sorry. And the lack of support for PanaLeica glass from Leica is another bad example for their dedication to FT.

 

yes this is true, however, rebranding as a strategy has meant Leica continues to exist. If it were not for rebranding neither you or i would be here now. This would be a history section on some other brands site

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[rosuna]

I've never owned either, but I have huge crush on the Digilux 3. I think it looks really cool. Not sure this contributed anything to this thread, but I needed to get that off my chest.

 

Thanks for your time, we now return to our regularly-scheduled thread.

 

Yes, but it can be improved. Leica shouldn't jump to a radically different concept, but improve the actual camera, this kind of "rangefinder" looking DSRL. The Digilux 4 could be a lot smaller and incorporate new electronics and sensor, a better viewfinder (brigther, bigger), etc. But Leica needs Panasonic for this.

 

And new primes for the 4/3 mount! (too many zooms already).

 

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