microview Posted November 27, 2015 Share #81 Posted November 27, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'd missed this topic and posted last night <back with the M9> Moderators could paste content here and delete??? FWIW I said Every time I delve into Lightroom catalogues I find I'm so much taken with my old M9 pics versus the M's (yes, I know, stale old topic…). But as I am averse to brassing and really don't like the ME's colour scheme I was absolutely delighted to find a black M9 in perfect condition at Richard Caplan's yesterday. I have it now and am feeling really pleased. Just one small thing: how much nicer the fonts in the menu compared with their M240 counterparts. And of course a saving of weight, much touted as a + feature of the new 262. Sensor problems? Who knows, but hopefully Leica will be able to fix for a year or so: 'several' according to the forum pundits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 27, 2015 Posted November 27, 2015 Hi microview, Take a look here Did anyone go back to M9 after M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
colonel Posted November 27, 2015 Share #82 Posted November 27, 2015 I'd missed this topic and posted last night <back with the M9> Moderators could paste content here and delete??? FWIW I said Every time I delve into Lightroom catalogues I find I'm so much taken with my old M9 pics versus the M's (yes, I know, stale old topic…). But as I am averse to brassing and really don't like the ME's colour scheme I was absolutely delighted to find a black M9 in perfect condition at Richard Caplan's yesterday. I have it now and am feeling really pleased. Just one small thing: how much nicer the fonts in the menu compared with their M240 counterparts. And of course a saving of weight, much touted as a + feature of the new 262. Sensor problems? Who knows, but hopefully Leica will be able to fix for a year or so: 'several' according to the forum pundits. Just bought an M-E can't say how excited i am waiting for delivery like old times + M-E lighter still with brass top Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiafish Posted November 27, 2015 Share #83 Posted November 27, 2015 Just bought an M-E can't say how excited i am waiting for delivery like old times + M-E lighter still with brass top Congratulations. I bought my new M-E back in April, and while it had to spend a few months in NJ, it is back and with a perfect new sensor (old type). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted November 28, 2015 Share #84 Posted November 28, 2015 Took shots alternately with M9/240 this morning and was surprised at the OOC difference. Here are two examples, M resized to match 18MP but no other adjustment to either file. Same lens, aperture, ISO (200) and exposure time. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229885-did-anyone-go-back-to-m9-after-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2938579'>More sharing options...
microview Posted November 28, 2015 Share #85 Posted November 28, 2015 above was m9 this is m240 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229885-did-anyone-go-back-to-m9-after-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2938580'>More sharing options...
colonel Posted November 28, 2015 Share #86 Posted November 28, 2015 Colour profiles are different. It's the contrast diff I like , M9 more like Kodachrome Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted November 28, 2015 Share #87 Posted November 28, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hmm.. the contrast difference is fairly noticeable. I would prefer if the photo was taken again, with a manual WB on both cameras and a reset of the camera and lens profiles in Lightroom by using a decent grey card and something like Colourchecker DNG profile manager. I would also suggest you keep the output the same... no cropping back to 18Mp, otherwise there is no point to the exercise, given that the question is about whether anyone would go back to an M9 after using a M240. If the point is output quality, give BOTH cameras the chance to show their best. The 240 has many advantages in terms of RF accuracy and contrast, battery life, handling, etc., etc,. The only reason I could see to go back would be that you actually preferred the results, or the way the camera 'feels' to you (or if you had an MM1, in which case it would be far better to keep the 'same' camera rather than having to mentally adjust every time you picked one of them up... as well as having all the same batteries etc.). Can you redo profiles and then repost? I'm genuinely interested in the difference in output. Just set WB and profile to the same thing and then see what differences there are on a straight import into Lightroom using the input settings for each individual camera. It would be far more meaningful then... Whether it is in absolute terms is moot though... I would imagine no two of us have screens that match in terms of colour and contrast, but at least we can see in terms of our own reference. Thats good enough for purpose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted November 28, 2015 Share #88 Posted November 28, 2015 Thanks Bill. Will do more pics on a nicer day than this morning in London and use WB settings as suggested. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted November 29, 2015 Share #89 Posted November 29, 2015 Thank you. Do you have a Colourchecker? I bought one a few months back and did a couple of profiles for my 240. One with the 35 Cron on the 240 and the other with the 50 Lux. They were different, more so than I thought. I would imagine a camera sensor to be difficult, but possible, to see differences on... but I was surprised that there was a small, but perceptible difference with the lenses too (I'm going to get all the more knowledgeable people on here laughing their heads off at my naïveté no doubt... But I REALLY didn't think I would see, let alone be able to correct, a small colour variation in a lens/sensor combination...). Setting profiles in a given light, with the lens used, seems to give more consistent colour results... I'm just not sure I could be bothered with it all. If I was a pro photographer in a studio and needed consistency for a model or catalogue shoot, then maybe, but I'm not that obsessive in day to day shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePioneer Posted November 30, 2015 Share #90 Posted November 30, 2015 Interesting read. I missed it the first time through. I did buy the M240, then returned it after about 30 days. I did like the reduced shutter and cocking noise but that was not enough to justify keeping it over my M9. I returned it and bought a new Summilux instead. Have not regretted it. This is timely though because I have been in contact with my nearest Leica Store about purchasing a new M262. But, this weekend I went out for awhile with my M9 and I have changed my mind again. No new M this time either. Instead I think I'll spend some of the money on a Macro Elmar 90. I have been looking at that lens for quite some time and I am sure I will enjoy working with it. In my case, new Leica glass has turned out to be a better buy. Of course your mileage may vary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
microview Posted November 30, 2015 Share #91 Posted November 30, 2015 I think I'll spend some of the money on a Macro Elmar 90. I have been looking at that lens for quite some time and I am sure I will enjoy working with it. I think you'll be pleased with it, as I was when I bought one (plus attachment for the live view M!!!). I do like the big 90 APO Summicron but it weighs a ton and I'd probably be at f4–5.6 anyway. One of the advantages of the M is the option for red framelines: I mention this because with the 90 lens you do need to take care that nothing you want in the pic sits just outside the framelines; and the red frames are bolder than the white in either camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musotographer Posted November 30, 2015 Share #92 Posted November 30, 2015 I did, and I'm very happy. My original M9P developed the sensor problem in June, and Leica made what I thought was a good offer to upgrade to one of the other cameras, or replace the sensor for free. I knew that there was some unhappiness with the CMOS sensor in the 240, but rather arrogantly assumed that it was the result of pixel-peeping and navel-gazing. Leica swapped my M9P for a lovely MP240, and I was very happy for a few weeks, once I had done a lot of experimenting in LR to get what I thought was an acceptable colour balance. The 240 is a much better camera to handle - I even wrote as much on here in the 240 forum. After I had had the 240 for six weeks, one day I happened to look at a lot of my older M9 files - and was shocked to see how much more magic - a sort of airy crispness - they all had compared to my recent 240 ones, which looked almost ordinary by comparison. Within a couple of weeks I had bought a replacement M9P, just back from Wetzlar and in lovely condition, the 240 was sold, unlamented apart from the shutter and its sound, and with some of the change I got a second-hand A7II for back-up, for ISOs higher than 800, and for when I think my eyes may have a problem focussing some of the trickier lenses (75/1.4 and 135/4). I am getting more pleasure from my photography than ever and I intend to keep the M9P for a very long time: if this one develops the sensor problem Leica will give it the 'new' sensor for free, so I can't lose. Despite all its idiosyncrasies it's a magical camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 2, 2015 Share #93 Posted December 2, 2015 Late to the party - but I swapped back. Working in the shop, I'd developed a little shutter envy comparing more recent mirrorless cameras to my M9 (Mark II Sony A7's, Fuji X's). Opportunity came along last month (11/15) for a Code U M240 ("used" in-house by Leica, reconditioned, 1-year warranty) at a nice price, and the quieter shutter did entice me. Took 10 days of profiling and reprofiling to realize the M240 sensor (and/or firmware backup) had problems that just could not be overcome to my satisfaction. Basic problem - the M240 produces a red channel hotter than a whore's stock-in-trade. This can be seen in microview's images above - excess red everywhere except the most intense greens (which are still biased yellow). No profile or WB could correct for that red cast without skewing the highlights cyan or green. I could drag the WB sliders to -30 green and 4000°K blue, and STILL have neutral grays under noon sunlight that read 5 points higher in red than green or blue. Reds blew to 255 faster than other colors, even in otherwise-substantial underexposures. (M9 blows blue channel first). Unblown reds had no differentiation - they all came out the same cartoonish fire-engine red, whether the original was bright, dark, orangy or purplish. Desaturating red in the profile just resulted in "dead" reds, without improving the other problems. BTW - Leica is obviously aware of this tendency, since their own "Embedded" profile shifted things more green/cyan compared to Adobe's. But with the same net results. The red channel was also the source of the banding, at ISOs above 2000. Which meant the M240 offered essentially no useful ISO improvement over the M9, for my purposes. (As someone who grew up boiling Tri-X in Dektol to get ISO 3200 when needed, grain/noise as such doesn't scare me. But banding is just too obviously a "digital" artifact). Makes me think the red output may just be over-cooked in the A/D conversion. Now, there could be some personal bias in this - I switched to Leica from Contax-G precisely because the Zeiss/Kyocera lenses were "too red" and "too hot" when I compared them eventually to Mandler's smooth cyan-y lenses. The M240 killed what brought me to Leica and has kept me there for 16 years. Gaaahh! Other factors: - The M240 captured less per-pixel sharpness. I never got details one pixel wide, as I do with the M9 (and M8, when I had it). Net, the M240's 24 Mpixels captured no more detail (and occasionally less) across the picture than the M9's 18 Mpixels. There was less moiré with the M240 - which just goes to show it was fuzzing fine patterns/lines out across several pixels. Thicker cover glass? Dropped bits of scenery due to gaps in the fill-factor? Intentional moiré-reduction processing? I dunno. Something I noticed with the samples posted a few months ago, comparing M9/M240 and MM/M-M images. But had to experience for myself. - The lightshow every time I touched the shutter button (on top of the slower startup time) - ISO, EV, and then finally the shutter speed or exposure arrows. Please, Leica - in future cameras, a menu option to suppress notifications in the viewfinder other than basic metering. KISS principle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
may1029 Posted December 26, 2015 Share #94 Posted December 26, 2015 the seller who sold me the Leica m-e is selling his m240 for a second hand m9p. I feel happy for him. A CMOS sensor camera can be a sony or whatever, but a full frame CCD machine is only here in Leica and discontinued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mltx Posted December 26, 2015 Share #95 Posted December 26, 2015 Other factors: - The M240 captured less per-pixel sharpness. The same feel (I have both M240 and M-E). If the focus is spot on, the 100% image from my M-E is quite usable: sharp and clean. It seems every pixel is used to maximum and optimum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Johnston Posted December 27, 2015 Share #96 Posted December 27, 2015 I didn't have to "go back" though I imagine that would have been the case for me as well. While my M9 was at L-NJ during the early days of the goodwill sensor replacement program I had the option of participating in the upgrade. At the time I was on a road trip and while I was considering the upgrade option, the first batch of sensors arrived and my camera was back by the time I returned home (new sensor and new logic board). The first images confirmed just how sweet a camera and how special the ccd is. I replied in a black and white post about a new set of images I put up on my website, the majority of which are from my M9 which I am so happy to be shooting with. http://www.arttaj.com/moving-waterorwater-water-everywhere/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted December 28, 2015 Share #97 Posted December 28, 2015 The only thing which attracts me to the 240 is the ability to use some other lenses on it. Well, also the VF is better? But I have a A7 Kolari which shoots really well, so I'm pretty happy with that as second to M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunston Posted December 31, 2015 Share #98 Posted December 31, 2015 still loving my M9-P, it is still a capable camera with 35mm summilux FLE especially in the low light compartment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosophos Posted December 31, 2015 Share #99 Posted December 31, 2015 Late to the party - but I swapped back. Working in the shop, I'd developed a little shutter envy comparing more recent mirrorless cameras to my M9 (Mark II Sony A7's, Fuji X's). Opportunity came along last month (11/15) for a Code U M240 ("used" in-house by Leica, reconditioned, 1-year warranty) at a nice price, and the quieter shutter did entice me. Took 10 days of profiling and reprofiling to realize the M240 sensor (and/or firmware backup) had problems that just could not be overcome to my satisfaction. Basic problem - the M240 produces a red channel hotter than a whore's stock-in-trade. This can be seen in microview's images above - excess red everywhere except the most intense greens (which are still biased yellow). No profile or WB could correct for that red cast without skewing the highlights cyan or green. I could drag the WB sliders to -30 green and 4000°K blue, and STILL have neutral grays under noon sunlight that read 5 points higher in red than green or blue. Reds blew to 255 faster than other colors, even in otherwise-substantial underexposures. (M9 blows blue channel first). Unblown reds had no differentiation - they all came out the same cartoonish fire-engine red, whether the original was bright, dark, orangy or purplish. Desaturating red in the profile just resulted in "dead" reds, without improving the other problems. BTW - Leica is obviously aware of this tendency, since their own "Embedded" profile shifted things more green/cyan compared to Adobe's. But with the same net results. The red channel was also the source of the banding, at ISOs above 2000. Which meant the M240 offered essentially no useful ISO improvement over the M9, for my purposes. (As someone who grew up boiling Tri-X in Dektol to get ISO 3200 when needed, grain/noise as such doesn't scare me. But banding is just too obviously a "digital" artifact). Makes me think the red output may just be over-cooked in the A/D conversion. Now, there could be some personal bias in this - I switched to Leica from Contax-G precisely because the Zeiss/Kyocera lenses were "too red" and "too hot" when I compared them eventually to Mandler's smooth cyan-y lenses. The M240 killed what brought me to Leica and has kept me there for 16 years. Gaaahh! Other factors: - The M240 captured less per-pixel sharpness. I never got details one pixel wide, as I do with the M9 (and M8, when I had it). Net, the M240's 24 Mpixels captured no more detail (and occasionally less) across the picture than the M9's 18 Mpixels. There was less moiré with the M240 - which just goes to show it was fuzzing fine patterns/lines out across several pixels. Thicker cover glass? Dropped bits of scenery due to gaps in the fill-factor? Intentional moiré-reduction processing? I dunno. Something I noticed with the samples posted a few months ago, comparing M9/M240 and MM/M-M images. But had to experience for myself. - The lightshow every time I touched the shutter button (on top of the slower startup time) - ISO, EV, and then finally the shutter speed or exposure arrows. Please, Leica - in future cameras, a menu option to suppress notifications in the viewfinder other than basic metering. KISS principle. Andy, I've been making the same points for years and many on this very forum have disagreed with me (many have agreed too). Glad to see more people like yourself are finally coming around to the same conclusions, but alas... Leica has abandoned CCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted December 31, 2015 Share #100 Posted December 31, 2015 I have a difficult decision to make. I have the opportunity of buying a used M240 in perfect condition, but I would have to sell my M9. I tested the M240 when it first came out and a little later with the new firmware and decided it wasn't worth the money for the upgrade at that point. I recently read someone here comment that they looked through their old photos and felt like they had more photographs that absolutely spoke to them with the M9. Sometimes I look at my old M8 photos and I see that ultimate crispness that the M9 gave up for the thicker IR filter on the sensor, but I still feel that the full-frame was a worthwhile upgrade. I don't want to start the discussion from both camps about what is better and why. I have sifted through all of those and I have my own opinion on that as well. I would specifically love to hear if someone switched back to the CCD sensor after owning the M240. I won't swap because I love my M9 more the longer I have it. I fully recognize your experiende going from M8.2 to M9 and I expect this coming if I swap to M240. I had several testperiods with it, not my thingy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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