Sinar pMF-L

[tllabron]

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Since it seems that Leica is ignoring the telephoto community. How about this new addition to the Leica adapter collection. It seems that in medium format realm 210mm is about as long as you can buy and hand hold, but why not use this adapter to give you access to the world of large format telephoto lenses.

 

Granted not all lenses will work in the digital age, but that does not mean that there are some good ones out there that will work. There is enough literature out there on the lens quality for various lenses to make it easier to find what you like. And face it anything longer than 350mm is going to be on a tripod anyway, what is wrong on looking at 600mm or even 1200mm lenses for the Leica S.

 

I have written to Sinar and they responded that this idea has the ability to work and if you find lenses that work well with this setup that would like to know about the lenses. Of course they would love it if you would use their Special Digital lenses for this setup, but the longest lens they produce is 210mm. They said that if you use anything longer you would have to open the lens and use the focal plane shutter of the camera, but what is wrong with lifting the shutter mirror and open the shutter and using the lens shutter.

 

There are lot of good lenses out there like Wollensak, Bausch and Lomb, Red Dot, Sinar, Zeiss, Nikkor and a lot of other great glass out there. Of course, they might not all be razor sharp for the digital age for every picture, but there is a lot to be said for the esthetics of the older lenses. I also opens the area for barrel lenses.

 

It would also seem a good way to cut cost on telephoto photography also, because we know if Leica would finally makes a telephoto lens it would probably cost a arm and a leg and like I said before you would be using a tripod anyway.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

tllabron.

[fotomas]

I think this one of the reasons why Leica bought Sinar.

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[Printmaker]

What would work is a long bellows designed for the S. Also, you would want to use true telephoto designs like the T Nikkors to cut down on the bellows draw otherwise a 360 is going to need 14 inches of bellows draw just to focus to infinity. With that in mind, 210 (8 inch) is about as long as is practical on a bellows.

[tllabron]

What would work is a long bellows designed for the S. Also, you would want to use true telephoto designs like the T Nikkors to cut down on the bellows draw otherwise a 360 is going to need 14 inches of bellows draw just to focus to infinity. With that in mind, 210 (8 inch) is about as long as is practical on a bellows.

 

Printmaster,

 

I would disagree. I can only assume you have not done much Large Format Photography and if you have you have used a camera like a Wista or other wooden built LF cameras. I have used Linhof equipment and the bellows is a stiffer material that some of the cheaper brands and when you use an 8X10 or 11X14 camera even in Linhof and Sinar you will get some drupe in the bellows, but none of this is harmful to the photograph. You can acquire 600mm and 800mm telephoto designed lenses that don't require an over extension of bellows, as if Leica would produce any thing small in this focal length range, as previously experienced.

 

tllabron

[fotomas]

I think they could be quite sharp, since you use use only the center of the image circle and lot of this long focal length constructions are apo-lenses, i. e. the Apo-Ronars.

We used an old Mamiya RB67 with digital backs and they performed very well, even with the old Mamiya-lenses that are definitely not digitally optimized. Same with analog lenses at the Sinar. I tested 180 Sironar macro analog against 120 Sironar macro digital and they were very close, with a small advantage for the digital. But you would only discover this at large magnification one against the other.

You would also not have problems with aslope light rays hitting the sensor.

But in case of a 4x5 Sinar you would need a second bellow for lenses at least longer than 300 mm, except they are special telephoto constructions. So you would use a Sinar with a S2, more than a S2 with a Sinar. Not much left of the S2 spirit, beside the benefit that you can tilt and shift.

I don't know: is there a adapter for the Sinar p3? That may fit a bit better.

[Printmaker]

Printmaster,

 

I would disagree. I can only assume you have not done much Large Format Photography and if you have you have used a camera like a Wista or other wooden built LF cameras. I have used Linhof equipment and the bellows is a stiffer material that some of the cheaper brands and when you use an 8X10 or 11X14 camera even in Linhof and Sinar you will get some drupe in the bellows, but none of this is harmful to the photograph. You can acquire 600mm and 800mm telephoto designed lenses that don't require an over extension of bellows, as if Leica would produce any thing small in this focal length range, as previously experienced.

 

tllabron

 

I used my first 4x5 & 8x10 in my second year of college which was 1969 and bought my first view, an Arca B, in 1970 and my first Linhof (Technika III) in 1980. Other than using a view camera every working day for the last 45 years, I guess you must be right, I don't know anything about view cameras or their lenses.

 

Even now, my 150 Rodenstock mounted on my Toyo View not 20 feet from me now has approximately 8 inches of bellows draw to focus on my copy board which is around 7 feet away from the camera.

 

What was being discussed was adapting long view camera lenses to a Leica S. These lenses require that their center be the same length from the focal plane as their length. For example a 150 mm requires 6 inches of bellows draw, a 210 requires 8 inches, etc. Telephoto designs are different and require less bellows draw. You can not just put a flange on a LF lens and pop it onto your Leica. You can, or soon will be able to, put your Leica S onto the back of a Sinar and then use almost any large format lens. But this is not really a field application. I doubt if anyone wants to shoot wildlife with such a rig. It is much better to adapt other long medium format lenses to the Leica S.

[tllabron]

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I think they could be quite sharp, since you use use only the center of the image circle and lot of this long focal length constructions are apo-lenses, i. e. the Apo-Ronars.

We used an old Mamiya RB67 with digital backs and they performed very well, even with the old Mamiya-lenses that are definitely not digitally optimized. Same with analog lenses at the Sinar. I tested 180 Sironar macro analog against 120 Sironar macro digital and they were very close, with a small advantage for the digital. But you would only discover this at large magnification one against the other.

You would also not have problems with aslope light rays hitting the sensor.

But in case of a 4x5 Sinar you would need a second bellow for lenses at least longer than 300 mm, except they are special telephoto constructions. So you would use a Sinar with a S2, more than a S2 with a Sinar. Not much left of the S2 spirit, beside the benefit that you can tilt and shift.

I don't know: is there a adapter for the Sinar p3? That may fit a bit better.

 

The p-mf-L will work on the p2 and the p3. According to the literature the mounting of the Leica S on this setup, the camera is phyiscally mounted in the central position for centering of the light path for optimum picture positioning and it turns on the axis for portrait format for.vertical picture taking.

 

Many of the older lenses are crisp and sharp. I started out with a RB67 and loved it, whether I was at the zoo or the open plains of Africa or in a studio situation taking portraits or setups of various items.

 

My enlarging lens for my 4X5 enlarger for my enlarging of my 4X5 film was actually a pre-war German lens that eventually became the Schiedner Company after the WW2 It was a very good lens and produced stunning enlargements. Some lenses were portraiture and were usually soft lenses. Those you might want to stay away from, but might prove interesting to use in certain situations.

 

tllabron

[tllabron]

I used my first 4x5 & 8x10 in my second year of college which was 1969 and bought my first view, an Arca B, in 1970 and my first Linhof (Technika III) in 1980. Other than using a view camera every working day for the last 45 years, I guess you must be right, I don't know anything about view cameras or their lenses.

 

Even now, my 150 Rodenstock mounted on my Toyo View not 20 feet from me now has approximately 8 inches of bellows draw to focus on my copy board which is around 7 feet away from the camera.

 

What was being discussed was adapting long view camera lenses to a Leica S. These lenses require that their center be the same length from the focal plane as their length. For example a 150 mm requires 6 inches of bellows draw, a 210 requires 8 inches, etc. Telephoto designs are different and require less bellows draw. You can not just put a flange on a LF lens and pop it onto your Leica. You can, or soon will be able to, put your Leica S onto the back of a Sinar and then use almost any large format lens. But this is not really a field application. I doubt if anyone wants to shoot wildlife with such a rig. It is much better to adapt other long medium format lenses to the Leica S.

 

I am sorry. I meant no offense. Many people who have never used a LF Cameras don't realize their versatility and figure they are only good for the studio. I to realize the distances needed for bellows draw. My 270mm f/5.6 Rodenstock Rotelar only takes about 8 inches and I will admit that if you tried to put a 800mm standard lens on this set up, the possible 30inches of bellows might be a little ungangly. But when you consider the convertible 360/500/720 Nikkor T you are talking for the first two only about 14 inches of Bellows, which is more than manageable in the field, plus I realize that, "You can not just put a flange on a LF lens and pop it onto your Leica." That is what the Sinar module is allowing you to do. The back camera mount marries the Leica S body in the exact proper place to match it up precisely with the lens combination you put in front of it.

 

I don't know what you did with your LF cameras, but mine were in the field with me. Mine was with me in Iceland photographing the wildlife and the spectacular wonders to be seen. It was on the Acropolis in Athens, Greece, the forum in Corinth and the City of Mycenae. It was with me at the Alhambra in Spain and the thousand year old Bridge built by the Romans in Ronda. It was with me in India in Delhi and Agar at the Taj Mahal. I also carried my LF setup with a 17 pound Gitzo tripod to the beginnings of the Colorado River in the Rocky Mountains. My LF camera was with me.

 

And in case you are going to say something about the quality of the older lenses being not as good let us remember that Ansel Adams used a 1932 design, Horace W. Lee patented (British patent 376,044) the Cooke Series XV Triple Convertible, which provided three focal lengths, with each half comprising two cemented doublets. The components gave excellent performance throughout the various focal length combinations.

 

Ansel Adams, famous American landscape photographer, shot many of his most famous images using this lens, as documented in his book "Examples: The Making of 40 Photographs."

 

So, if an individual wants good telephoto lenses on their Leica S I feel that with a little bit of effort this is viable alternative to lenses that Leica does not seem to want to produce.

 

tllabron

[Printmaker]

I am sorry. I meant no offense. ... I don't know what you did with your LF cameras, but mine were in the field with me.

 

So, if an individual wants good telephoto lenses on their Leica S I feel that with a little bit of effort this is viable alternative to lenses that Leica does not seem to want to produce.

 

tllabron

 

No worries. I bought my S2 to take some of the work load off of my view camera/scanback. While the BetterLight scanback produces a beautiful file, captures with polarizing filters over the lights and lens result in 15 to 20 minute exposure times. This didn't used to be a problem but increased truck traffic outside my studio and unreliable power combined to make long exposures unreliable. Yes, I tried a new tripod and power tamers but I still had an occasional unusable file. The S2 solves that problem and increases my production.

 

I bought my old Linhof to use in the field. With a 210/127/90 Schnider lenses, a dozen film holders and a tripod (plus food, clothing and water), the load was manageable when I was 30 - 50, after that age I turned to my Leica M4 - M9. My Linhof 127 Xenar and 90 Angulon lenses were from the 60s and produced beautiful negs that I used for making platinum prints. The 210 was a repo Clarion - a nice small lens for field work. None of these lenses were as good as the Rodenstocks I use on my studio view cameras but they did a nice job and were small and light. Still, after 50, it was a load to carry.

 

I'm trying to decide if I want to pick up a Sinar P3, bag bellows and Leica adaptor or just stick with my Toyo/BetterLight combo for shooting sculptures. The Sinar combo would run $5K plus. For a little more I could get a Leica 120 TS. Decisions, decisions. At this stage of my career, I may just stick with what I have and add another lens or two for the S2.

 

Again, no offense taken.

[menos I M6]

Currently most practical long lenses on a Leica S body do range in the ~300 - 400mm focal length.

These can be mated to teleconverters, designed and manufactured specifically for these lenses.

These are relatively modern medium format telephoto lenses with proper aperture controls and features as drop in filters, telescopic lens hoods focus limiters, etc …

 

Some of these lenses are absolutely handhold-able, if needed.

 

For the very mobile, compact and uncomplicated design of the Leica S system I would rather not have to deal with complex modular systems.

I think for a studio setup these Sinar options can make sense.

[tllabron]

Currently most practical long lenses on a Leica S body do range in the ~300 - 400mm focal length.

These can be mated to teleconverters, designed and manufactured specifically for these lenses.

These are relatively modern medium format telephoto lenses with proper aperture controls and features as drop in filters, telescopic lens hoods focus limiters, etc …

 

Some of these lenses are absolutely handhold-able, if needed.

 

For the very mobile, compact and uncomplicated design of the Leica S system I would rather not have to deal with complex modular systems.

I think for a studio setup these Sinar options can make sense.

 

Menos,

 

Your observations are true if the lenses were available.

 

The Hasselblad 300mm is still available but this equals only 240mm in the 35mm format, which is barely a telephoto. As telephoto length increases the availability of these lenses diminishes to virtually nil. There is all sorts of information out there on these lenses, just very little to be had in your hands. A 400mm give you the 35 equivalent of a 320, but if you are on a trip to Africa I think you would need at least a 500mm on a S camera, because that is 35 equivalent to a 400mm lens and my 400mm on my 35mm Leicas worked great when I was there.

 

I don't know why Leica will not make a 400 or 560mm long focal lens for the S camera with a sliding focus like they offered for many years for their R cameras and the M camera. It is like they think that consumers theses days have to have everything done for them except pressing buttons.

 

In my mind it is still an availability problem.

 

tllabron