S in use cf DSLR in use

[Winedemonium]

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I am curious about the Leica S. It seems quite DSLR-like from a user perspective. Does the experience (I'm not talking about image quality) differ that much from using a DSLR combo like a D800E + 1.4/55 Otus?

[Likaleica]

It's an R9 DMR on steroids with superior ergonomics.

[mgcd]

It's an R9 DMR on steroids with superior ergonomics.

 

These are the exact terms I used to describe the S to a friend last week.

[Jeff S]

It's an R9 DMR on steroids with superior ergonomics.

 

But the lenses are generally bigger than R lenses….trade-off for superior performance.

 

Jeff

[Likaleica]

But the lenses are generally bigger than R lenses….trade-off for superior performance.

 

Jeff

 

Worth it, IMHO. Weightless when on a tripod.

[Jeff S]

Weightless when on a tripod.

 

So is a large format view camera using this assessment. Not sure if that helps answer the OP's question; nor the comment about whether it's 'worth it', even though many agree. I was merely clarifying your initial comment to better address the OP's question about camera AND LENS.

 

Jeff

[darylgo]

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I am curious about the Leica S. It seems quite DSLR-like from a user perspective. Does the experience (I'm not talking about image quality) differ that much from using a DSLR combo like a D800E + 1.4/55 Otus?

 

You've hit the nail on the head, small differences of course exist between them. The Leica is simpler in use with less menus and admittedly less functions that might be useful to a limited segment of users. The Leica is larger but handling is superb due to it's great ergonomics. As mentioned the lenses are larger and the grip is not as sure as a 35mm type lens, this is the price for superb performance just as the Otus is larger.

 

All comparisons are without grip on each camera.

 

The Leica S is an improvement is handling over the S2, if that is any indication the new Leica S to be introduced at Photokina may be an improvement over the current S.

[jlindstrom]

Well, not knowing much of these in practise but somethings just from specs are interesting.

 

Fex D800E + otus is just ~200g lighter than Leica S typ 0006 + 70mm cs lens. If you take the version without cs, the difference is around 100g.

 

So a tiny difference there.

 

The S enjoys naturally from better lenses & bigger sensor, where D800E has sportier benefits along with faster AF, faster frame rates & better high iso. Naturally fast frame rate & af don't apply in the OP's scenario of using otus lenses as they have no af at all - So Leica af actually wins :-)

 

In the end I think they're geared for different use cases, with both somewhat capable of jumping into others territory if you force them. Thus it becomes more the question about how the OP uses the camera and then picking the system.

 

And even the S can have long reach, if you use manual focus fex. by using some of the superb R-series teles with adapter. Here on the other hand, Nikon can give nice teles with AF.

 

//Juha

 

 

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[Winedemonium]

These are all very useful comments, thank you.

 

Also very helpful was satijntje's post and the subsequent thread on the S for the non-professional S user.

 

I love my M system and I am not looking to replace it. It's strengths lie in being an agile and unobtrusive camera for "reportage", which to my mind combines a walkabout camera, social use, travel, and some nature and still life work. But for the latter two, when more thoughtfully set up, and with time on my hands, my thought is that a "DSLR" might be a worthwhile system to return to.

 

At the full original retail price the S system was - thankfully - expensive enough that I could just dismiss it outright. Handling one in the Leica store I just loved the build quality, the ergonomics - including that glorious viewfinder - the simplicity of it. But st the price I was able to simply ignore it.

 

I have been offered a brand new S with the 70mm Summarit for a very very good price that beats the current $5k rebate standard deal. But as the system continues to mature, I am sure some Ss will come on to the market used (especially as the target market professionals get their 3rd generation cameras post-this coming Photokina if Leicarumours has it right), and that this will further drive down used S2 prices.

 

So now the S system will begin to hover in my conscious (GAS-prone) mind.

 

This is what appeals:

D800E + Otus beating IQ in good light (and the weight of the system means I would mostly use it on a tripod or in good light anyway, for landscape and still life)

Used or clearance prices putting it closer to the realm of reality for me.

The wonderful Leica quality - the design and finish of the equipment.

Leica glass!!!

Weather sealing for work in poorer weather.

Working entirely within a Leica system top to bottom.

The potential file quality notwithstanding the discipline required to make good on it.

 

Of course this is indulgence being rationalised out loud! I am not a professional. I'm an amateur, a hobbyist. But it gives me a lot of pleasure.

 

I shall continue to "lurk" the S forum.

 

Thanks for your help in this thread.

[jlindstrom]

Wined: your requirements - just like I'd be looking into a mirror :-)

[Printmaker]

I'd never buy a car based on specs or a camera. You have to put the machine through it's paces to appreciate what it can do. But that's just me.

 

If you are a Nikon shooter and love the way the D800 camera works, buy one and use the money you save to get some good Zeiss glass. If you are a Leica shooter, buy the S. No one else can choose the right machine for you. But, since you asked, here's my .02...

 

Personally, I went through a period where most of my Nikon purchases developed problems within 18 months, so I stopped using their products. I think this was when they had an American behind the wheel and profits were more important than customers. As for Leica, I've owned their cameras and lenses since 1968, they have always been rock solid and dependable. Customer care has been superb. (When was the last time you used a camera on a daily basis for more than 40 years?)

 

Now that I'm using my S2 outside of the studio, I'm really impressed with this camera. It is light enough that I could see myself shooting assignments with the S2 and a 120 over one shoulder and my M9 with a 35 over the other.

 

And there's the downside to the S (2). Now that I've seen how good the 70 mm lens is, I want/need the 120 and the 35 to make a set... just when I thought I was done buying lenses. Good bye $10,000 - $15,000. Well at least it is going to be a deductible purchase.

[erlingmm]

Just back from 1 week in Havana with the S2 and the 30-90 zoom. Extremely happy with the results: Natural, vivid colors with almost no post processing. It is not a camera for high ISO but 640 works fine, 1250 with some processing. The camera is ergonomically perfect, although it has some weight, carrying it around for 5 days works fine. The zoom makes it a versatile walk-around. All in all very happy. A few shots (the BWs are Monochrom) can be seen on https://www.flickr.com/photos/55833221@N00/

[menos I M6]

I find the differences in usage between a modern typical DSLR (Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax, …) and the Leica S bodies are worlds apart!

 

I recently added another backup body to my Nikon system (D800E) and shooting this body for the last few weeks reminded me how so absolutely simple, easy, fast and streamlined the Leica S system is!

 

I find my S2 far faster to set up for shooting.

The shutter speed dial and switching between shooting modes with the Leica is so much faster and simpler than with the Nikon system, where you fiddle with several controls (buttons + dials + button holding and dial spinnings), while everything you do with the Leica S is placed just on the one shutter speed dial.

 

I absolutely love the approach of the Leica S in this regard.

 

The other beauty about the S is it's AF system.

There is only one highly accurate AF point with the S, while you have a highly customisable (and to beginners potentially overwhelmingly complicated) AF system with many options, modes and custom functions on the high end DSLRs.

 

Sure the S doesn't track a F1 car at high speed coming at you through a series of corners, while the Nikon system does with ease, when set up properly, but the complications of the typical SLRs do overwhelm even at simple tasks, while the Leica S just does one thing best - find focus accurately.

 

I am always amazed how the S2 AF system seems to be dead accurate on spot while the Nikon D3 and D800E seem to vary just a slightly bit from shot to shot.

 

With a high res sensor as the S or the D800E this can make a big difference (with the 12MP D3 this was hardly an issue).

 

I wish my Nikon bodies had a viewfinder and shutter speed dial, as my S2 does.

For me it was never a point of Leica S or Nikon 35mm system.

Both systems are entirely different and complement each other nicely with entirely different purposes.

 

One point at last, that is quite amazing is that there simply is no Leica S mount lens, which is bad.

On the contrary one has to be very selective with the lenses for the D800, if one would want to use the potential of the sensor resolution.

 

In terms of size and weight, the bodies are very similar (although I find due to the large quantity of controls, spread all over the body, the D800 feels very cramped and overloaded, while the S simply feels perfect in the hand).

[Likaleica]

I agree about S AF. I shoot a lot of horses:eek: (that sounded bad) and even when they're cantering a large percentage of my photos are razor sharp. Individual hairs are well defined.

[Printmaker]

I just shot a fashion show with my S2 and came away wishing it had a faster frame rate and had a usable high ISO of say 3200. Still, this is not how I normally use this camera. For my art repro, products, landscapes and portraits, the S2 is a dream come true.

[menos I M6]

I just shot a fashion show with my S2 and came away wishing it had a faster frame rate and had a usable high ISO of say 3200. Still, this is not how I normally use this camera. For my art repro, products, landscapes and portraits, the S2 is a dream come true.

 

This is one of the two scenarios where the Leica S is simply stopping to work.

It is not designed as a low light camera for handheld shooting unlike modern DSLRs which work flawlessly into the night, handheld nowadays.

 

The S really is a camera in need of a lot of light in order to keep ISO low and stop lenses down for DOF - you do this either with plenty of light or add flash, which it is beautifully designed for.

 

The other (major) shortcoming is availability of long AF lenses. Sure you can mount Contax 645 and Hasselblad H AF lenses or shoot manual focus super telephotos but in actual performance and ease of use they are ages behind a modern Canon or Nikon long lens setup.

 

I wish this to be changed by Leica, introducing some (affordable) long AF S-mount lenses, priced similarly as Nikon or Canon Supertelephotos (and not double or triple their street prices).

I would kill for a modern, lightweight 400/4 + TC designed from ground up for the S sensor.

 

Regarding the limitation of frames with the S - I actually do not at all see this as a limitation.

at more than 50MB/ photo I simply do not want to sort through Gigabytes of sequential photos, I rattled through at 8fps with a Leica S.

 

The S2 really teaches you to time your shots better and I find this actually a much, much better way of shooting.

 

Here is two camera systems at the same race (I actually carried one on each shoulder that day to compare the files I would get from both) - a Nikon D3 + 300/2.8 VR + TC 2x and a Leica S2 + 300/2.8 APO + TC 2x:

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - Fri - No 31 Lotus Praga LMP2 by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

WEC 6 hours of Shanghai - IMSA Performance Matmut by teknopunk.com, on Flickr

 

The give-away - I switched to the Nikon, once the light was setting, as to keep shutter speeds at higher ISO with these frontal shots.

 

My wish for the next Leica S:

 

- provide 5 AF points (similar to the Nikon F5 from the 90's), which are as accurate as the current one from the S2 or S

- introduce a fully weather sealed 400/4 AF and accompanying TC 1.4x and TC 2x (for manual focus) at a competitive price (think price range of comparable Nikkor or Canon glass)

- improve the continuous focus tracking of the S bodies

- keep the old sensor but improve ISO performance to provide cleaner ISO 800 and a bit more dynamic range at that speed

[Printmaker]

Nice work Menos!

 

I would have used my M9 but it is being cleaned by Leica for oil on the sensor. The M9 is a bit faster than the S2 and not as sensitive to camera shake at slow shutter speeds. (We were also shooting video so flash was out.) A see in the dark D3 or D4 with a 24-70 would have been the tool for that job but, like I said, shooting fashion runways is not my normal type of work.

 

Overall I'm happy with the S2 and do not see the need for a Nikon. I'll add a 35 and a 120 lenses when my bank account recovers but probably stop there - though a 120 tilt/shift might retire my 4x5s. Still, a 300 priced like a Nikon 300 would be tempting.

 

I'm curious, which 300 did you use on your Leica?

[jlindstrom]

And about the philosophical differences between systems.. I think Nikon's latest firmware update pretty much tells the story. They just added a webserver to D800/800E, which you can acces via external communication adapter, in order to browse photoa on your cf card.

 

That's propably the last thing I'd want in my camera. A bloody webserver!

 

(shaking head in disbelief)

 

//Juha

 

 

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[menos I M6]

Nice work Menos!

…

 

I'm curious, which 300 did you use on your Leica?

 

Thanks ;-)

 

I used a Mamiya 645 300/2.8 APO with it's 2x teleconverter.

This Mamiya lens is in my opinion the best all around 300 mm you can buy today for your Leica S system.

 

It is a fairly modern design, still by todays standards optically excellent (does even very well on the 37MP S sensor).

It is surprisingly compact due to it's (old school) non internal focussing design.

It does still pretty well with the 2x teleconverter if you must reach to 600.

 

They usually sell in the similar range of the latest manual focus 35mm super tele lenses.

 

The other long lens options, I still have an eye on but could not secure a sample yet is the Zeiss 350mm in Contax 645 mount and the 400/4 Pentax 67.

The Zeiss is generally hopelessly overpriced since it is not often seen for sale and people are hoping to make a killing since the C645 - S adapter is available (the very only option to now use this lens apart from it's native Contax 645 body).

 

For that reason and for the fact that the only option to go for more reach on the Zeiss is their (magnificent) 1.4x Mutar (I use one of these with the Zeiss 210/4), the expensive 350 is off the table. Currently there is seriously one optimistic chap trying to sell one for 5000 EUR asking price on the bay

 

And about the philosophical differences between systems.. I think Nikon's latest firmware update pretty much tells the story. They just added a webserver to D800/800E, which you can acces via external communication adapter, in order to browse photoa on your cf card.

 

That's propably the last thing I'd want in my camera. A bloody webserver!

 

(shaking head in disbelief)

 

//Juha

 

I think you miss the point here Juha - it is a very useful feature for working people who need to have their shots moved from the camera to a remote computer quickly (think remote cameras at athletic games).

 

It is a feature on a piece of gear not intended for your use, so why the negative talk.

The Leica S also has some features, I probably never will make use of (tethered capability to name one), yet it's a great camera for the limited use I make of it.

 

The general philosophy is that way between cutting edge 35mm gear and the Leica S - both intended for entirely different purposes, aimed at different users but yet sharing capabilities to squeeze either in similar tasks, depending on the user making compromises or having to learn ways around functions and usability.

 

I will probably repeat my experiment, shooting the S2 and the D800E side by side, once an opportunity arises and I am in the mood, as back then it showed me that even for shooting motorsports, where the Leica S is anything but ideal for the task, the beautiful files have a lot going for - this is absolutely not something one can see in tiny compressed web JPGs. The major difference lies in tones and highlight rolloff (the old D3 cuts off highlights rather sharply, while the rolloff from blown details towards full detail areas with the S2 happens more gradually).

 

The D800E should be a lot better suited to compare the two systems.

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Hallo,

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[jlindstrom]

Dirk, the camera already had capability to push out the images via ftp for example. And there could have been other similar protocols implemented as well.. it just doesn't make sense to use the cameras cpu power to host a server.

 

The nikons and canons etc have their place for sure. And they can do things Leica's currently can't. But what I protest against is adding useless bloat to cameras. For example web servers, which are not meant for file transfer. FTP is short of file transfer protocol and is far superior in it compared to http.

 

Next thing they'll probably link it to facebook, instagram, flickr and pix500...

 

Just seems to me that they could use their R&D money better than implementing web servers and nfc etc features to these cameras.

 

And as a person dealing with network security, I'm just waiting for the news when someone's D800 has been hacked and turned into a surveillance camera without the owners knowledge.

 

Not trying to be a "Leica biggot" and turn this into anti-DSLR thing, as said both have their place. But the manufacturers should focus their r&d on something that's actually useful instead of adding bloat.

 

//Juha