Will the M Monochrom be updated?

[FrozenInTime]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

To me, any feature that avoids the premature clipping of zones 8 and 9 is most certainly not a creature comfort. Fact is the caera is touted as a digital black and white film camera, but the wrt highlights the sensor acts more like a digital slide film camera. Any improvement that would make the camera act more like regular negative film wrt the highlights will be a huge improvement akin to going from an M8 to an M9...

 

If a clear and neutral density array ( think similar to a colour bayer array ) was fitted over the sensor, the result would be full resolution in the mid tones, reduced resolution in the shadows and highlights but also increased dynamic range.

A compromise might be just to make one pixel in four with a ND overlay - to give a recoverable highlight dynamic range extension with minimal effect on the shadow resolution and sensitivity.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Highlight clipping has only one reason: when a pixel is full it is full and it clips. If you have a colour sensor one channel will clip before the others and the missing information can be extrapolated, giving the impression of a " gradual" overexposure. A monochrome sensor will not have that feature so it will clip abruptly. Any monochrome sensor, regardless of dynamic range.

[jaapv]

If a clear and neutral density array ( think similar to a colour bayer array ) was fitted over the sensor, the result would be full resolution in the mid tones, reduced resolution in the shadows and highlights but also increased dynamic range.

A compromise might be just to make one pixel in four with a ND overlay - to give a recoverable highlight dynamic range extension with minimal effect on the shadow resolution and sensitivity.

 

And destroy all the advantages of a filterless sensor. ….Dreaming up technical solutions to correct simple pilot error in exposure is putting the horse behind the cart.

[FrozenInTime]

And destroy all the advantages of a filterless sensor. ….Dreaming up technical solutions to correct simple pilot error in exposure is putting the horse behind the cart.

 

When the dynamic range presented by the scene exceeds what the sensor can handle , there is no correct exposure - it's a trade off between shadows and highlights ; not pilot error.

 

My proposal does not "destroy all the advantages of a filterless sensor" :

It maintains full resolution in the mid tones - i.e.the vast majority of the scene.

Yes there is compromise at the extreme ends, but still far more resolution than a colour bayer at those extremes.

[Manolo Laguillo]

The high densities in the B/W negative (which correspond to the highlights in the scene) are equivalent to the shadows in the Monochrome file.

 

When printing the B/W negative, either by contact or with the enlarger, with enough exposure you can excite the paper through those densities, and achieve enough detail in the corresponding highlights. The problem that eventually appears is what happens with the shadows, which must be controlled via the paper's contrast degree. In any case, the low densities in the B/W negative must be above a minimum, in order to have enough information (tonal separation) in the shadows.

 

The Monochrome has apparently endless shadows: it's possible to extract information from them to an amount that seems unbelievable. In this sense we shall treat them as we used to treat highlights when working with B/W negative film in our previous lifes: just don't caring about shadows. And now we shall treat highlights as we treated shadows before: with the utmost delicacy.

 

The problem with B/W film is with underexposing. If in doubt, do overexpose!

The problem with a Monochrome file is overexposing. If in doubt, don't refrain from underexposing!

 

It's that easy.

 

With B/W film it was inevitable having 'clipped highlights', even with the softest paper grade, when the scene was too much N+. The point was keeping those white spots (zone X) as small as possible.

 

We have been spoiled by digital cameras. And we often think that technology will give us something essentially impossible: no limits. But for luck there are limits.

[jaapv]

When the dynamic range presented by the scene exceeds what the sensor can handle , there is no correct exposure - it's a trade off between shadows and highlights ; not pilot error.

 

My proposal does not "destroy all the advantages of a filterless sensor" :

It maintains full resolution in the mid tones - i.e.the vast majority of the scene.

Yes there is compromise at the extreme ends, but still far more resolution than a colour bayer at those extremes.

Yes - and it eliminates the advantage - absence of the artifacts caused by the filter.

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

There is indeed no correct exposure - but there is certainly incorrect exposure. Blowing the highlights on a digital camera for instance, or blocking the shadows on film…

[FrozenInTime]

Yes - and it eliminates the advantage - absence of the artifacts caused by the filter.

 

Unlike a colour bayer filter where the resolution is reduced through interpolation at all levels, the clear / ND array has only interpolation in the top and bottom stops ... where there the loss of a little information would be less noticeable. In the central 8 or so stops there is no interpolation as both the clear and ND pixels are within their linear range.

[jaapv]

Forgetting the chromatic aberration at the edges of the pixel filters. It is all nonsense anyway. The DR of the Monochrom is comparable to film at approx 13 stops. Just expose for the highlights like slide film (6 stops!!!) and be done with it….

[A miller]

Highlight clipping has only one reason: when a pixel is full it is full and it clips. If you have a colour sensor one channel will clip before the others and the missing information can be extrapolated, giving the impression of a " gradual" overexposure. A monochrome sensor will not have that feature so it will clip abruptly. Any monochrome sensor, regardless of dynamic range.

 

Jaap - Indulge me if you have a moment and explain why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the black pixel vis-a-vis shadow clipping?

[jaapv]

A black pixel is empty, even one photon caught should start to activate it, but it will be drowned in the noise floor. So the charge will gradually be built up from an undefined minimum charge to the maximum of 100% where you have a cutoff.

 

The pixel is, after all, an analog device which is filled to a certain level. ( Film, in contrast, can be called digital. A halide crystal is either activated or it is not.)

 

To continue the difference to film, you will have shadow detail to the exact point that the crystals merge and you have your 100% cutoff, whereas the light aka barely exposed areas will taper off until the last smidgen of detail is lost. Just the other way around.

[A miller]

Thanks, Jaap. I am starting to see the light

[Jeff S]

I am starting to see the light

 

That's step one.

 

Step two…use the histogram if needed.

 

Step three…use and enjoy what you have to make great pics, and don't fret about new gear, especially if it belongs to some other guy.

 

Jeff

[FrozenInTime]

Forgetting the chromatic aberration at the edges of the pixel filters. It is all nonsense anyway. The DR of the Monochrom is comparable to film at approx 13 stops. Just expose for the highlights like slide film (6 stops!!!) and be done with it….

 

The Californian sun is a bit harsher than that in Britain.

 

MM here with DR stretched to the limit - my best exposure compromise ( manually bracketed )

I blew only a small amount of polished metal highlight detailing and was down to noise with little detail in the deep shadows.

NB: Contrast slider in LR set to -100.

 

Another stop each side would have helped.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaapv]

Certainly - and it would have similar problems on film and be an absolute nightmare on slidefilm.

 

So if you were able to squeeze say 15 zones into your sensor, how would you get them onto paper? You can only "cut a slice" out of the tonal range. Best to make the choice at exposing the image

[FrozenInTime]

So if you were able to squeeze say 15 zones into your sensor, how would you get them onto paper? You can only "cut a slice" out of the tonal range. Best to make the choice at exposing the image

 

Not so : if the sensor can record the full dynamic range of the scene, dodging and burning, selective masking and tone mapping can all be used make the final print image - the exact parallel to what was done in the darkroom with pull processed film and paper.

[BerndReini]

Yup, and then we will spend hours in Photoshop trying to get an image with some kind of "pop" out of that huge amount of dynamic range. Why did so many great Magnum photographers shoot film instead of negative? Well, when the new Monochrom comes out, we can finally take great photographs again ... for a few months until we wait for the next version.

 

I really hope the current MM drops in price by thousands. I will gladly buy one.

[Herr Barnack]

Well, if your $ 80,000 car gets a successor, it will still be in a position to transport you from A to B.

Your existing camera gear doesn´t stop working for you at the very moment another camera appears around the corner.

Or does it?

In this case you should send it in for a repair. Better still, enjoy what camera you got and exploit it for better photography.

 

Best

GEORG

There are firmware updates coming to address that oversight.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Lee Martin]

It would be very surprising to me if a new mm was announced this Sept. It would mark the quickest update of an M model in recent history. Given Leica's history of making things to last, it would only logically follow that a new MM would not be intended to replace the current model. If it is, it will burn a lot of people

 

Leica don't make things to last to the same degree as they did. It's been made quite clear that the ability to provide parts to service digital cameras is a fraction of the time that they've managed to service the film cameras. The M8 is a good example. You've got to regard your digital body as disposable whereas the lenses should actually be an investment, or at least adaptable

[B-A-C]

Leica don't make things to last to the same degree as they did. It's been made quite clear that the ability to provide parts to service digital cameras is a fraction of the time that they've managed to service the film cameras. The M8 is a good example. You've got to regard your digital body as disposable whereas the lenses should actually be an investment, or at least adaptable

 

Lee - that's a good point. Taking that into consideration - do they need to build them so bombproof? If you could simply swap out sensors I'd say go ahead. Otherwise cost is being built in unnecessarily.