mobirobo1 Posted April 11, 2014 Share #21 Posted April 11, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) A small addition to all that was said and I mostly agree with: In my case the transition from developing and scanning Tri-X to post processing DNG files took me more time and effort than I expected. The MM files are soo rich and offer so much possibilities that I initially lost track and spend way too much time looking at my PC screen trying to figure out what look I want to create from the files. And I do not use silver efex pro yet.. Just with LR. For me this was less so with film but it is probably also just the beginner in me. Still have the M6 in use and enough film in the cooler to have fun and the Nikon Coolscan V ED stays where it is humming along.. Rolf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 Hi mobirobo1, Take a look here Any MM uers that switched from B&W film and regretted it?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jplomley Posted April 12, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted April 12, 2014 Terrific feedback from everyone who took the time to comment. @ChrisM: I see you have both the Coolscan 9000 and Imacon 848. I'm curious about the quality difference in the scanning output between the two for B&W film, and whether or not it is visible in the final print? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A miller Posted April 12, 2014 Share #23 Posted April 12, 2014 I dont think MM can and should replace real film. But it does deserve to be the primary BW tool, with film used in those relevant situations. As for printing, i have done a fair amount of printing with Whitewall in Germany using their Ilford baryta fiber paper and manual silver gelatin processing. The results are spectacular. Even high 2500 iso shots that have a fair amount of grain on my computer monitor come out smooth as silk on print. And i have found there to be a wide latitude of a sharpening with very pleasing results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted April 13, 2014 Share #24 Posted April 13, 2014 Terrific feedback from everyone who took the time to comment. @ChrisM: I see you have both the Coolscan 9000 and Imacon 848. I'm curious about the quality difference in the scanning output between the two for B&W film, and whether or not it is visible in the final print? Jeff, There is a bit more detail from the Imacon, but you won't see it in prints up to A3 size, and I haven't tried anything larger than that. The main advantage for me is that it is faster to use and easier to get right. I use OS X and I'm limited to Vuescan for the Nikon now and I haven't managed to make it work as well as the old Nikon app. The FlexColor software works fine with OS X, and allows automated .fff scanning that essentially sucks everything out of the negative as a 300MB file to keep as the closest thing to a digital negative you can get. FlexColor, or Photoshop with a little thought, can then make working tiffs from the fff file - these can have adjustments applied or simply be scaled in terms of quality and adjustments applied afterwards in LR/PS/Aperture. I don't want to spend 300MB of disk space per negative, so I store the negs as my originals and make working tifs from them. While shipping is a bit of a nightmare, Imacons are still repairable and serviceable. New light tubes can be bought from B&H. I bought mine used for half the new price of an X1, which is essentially the same machine but without the ability to take the batch scanning attachment that the X5 and the 848 do work with. I don't have one so I can't say anything useful about it, except that buying that attachment and a set of negative holders to go with it—it takes ten of them—you really would be bankrupt! I could get on just fine if I had only the Nikon, but I enjoy using the Imacon much more, and since I develop and scan two films every week I might as well enjoy it! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted April 14, 2014 Share #25 Posted April 14, 2014 For the past few years, I have been steadily moving from commercial and corporate work to fine art, all 100% darkroom based, 21 years with digital can do that to a guy. My markets are very healthy in opportunities for fine art as I work primarily with interior decorators, luxury hotel and resort chains and of course private collectors. In most cases, closer to 95% I would say, if an art buyer is at all interested in the image, they ask how it came to be, digital or film. And in every single case that this inquiry is replied to, they LOVE the idea that the image never even came close to a computer...you know, that thing with an "i" on it that billions of people now use for everything? So purely in terms of additional market "umph", using black and white film and the darkroom has proven to be the single most well placed and well timed career decision I have ever made and likely ever will make. Because it no longer matters how good digital is or gets, black and white film & the darkroom now stands alone on it's highest pedestal ever in terms of artistic perception and market differentiation. I was mostly using medium and large format for a lot of this work but have steadily brought 35mm back into the fold due to all it has over the larger and slower formats. So I employ about 10% 35mm film in my work. So in short, you could hand me a "MM",a .95 Noct asph, the best Epson printer and a new Mac Pro for free and I would hand it back to you and say no. It just does not hold a candle to living a life that keeps computers and the perceptions of such away from my hand made prints and my customers love this like you can not believe... This movement is now so incredibly strong that I have been contracted by the estates and local archives of famed shooters in my town from years past to hand print black and white fine art editions of their best vintage shots which in turn helps me to keep stock fresh, get my name out to more people in selling my own work and get even better at silver gel printing. So there is no such thing as the MM being better at the final black and white image. Black and white film and the darkroom in masterful hands is now held in the highest esteem it has ever known, it is now what many would consider to be "Alternative Process". The MM may be technically the best black and white digital camera on paper and in tech terms but it will never ever push aside the emotional power of a real silver gel print. The notion of just how incredibly stunning a fine silver gelatin print is in person seems to blow viewers minds more and more each day in an age where everything has been swallowed up and democratized by the computer....and that is truly the way it should be from this day forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted April 14, 2014 Share #26 Posted April 14, 2014 Maybe one regret... How should I put this... I love the smell of Rodinal in the morning, it smells like... I am making something special! Victory! How right you are. Hope you enjoy many more RODINAL mornings. And evenings for scanning ... Best GEORG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobirobo1 Posted April 14, 2014 Share #27 Posted April 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) @ KM-25 Perhaps slightly off topic but I find that incredibly interesting that in professional photography there is a possibility to thrive using analogue technology and produce fin art prints. I hope that you can do that many more years and get people's attention for something as cool as analogue photography and all the hard work that is required to prduce something unique. Just recently I noticed something else in a similar context: The digital generation that I am exposed to actually shows genuine keen interest in understanding "how film and printing works" Another few generations further and there will hardly be anyone that has the experience and knowledge to pass it on I suspect. Friends of mine in the photography industry have a very hard time surviving because customers think that with digital photography the work should almost be for free because it is all so "easy" and available to everybody. Rolf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted April 14, 2014 Share #28 Posted April 14, 2014 @ KM-25 Perhaps slightly off topic but I find that incredibly interesting that in professional photography there is a possibility to thrive using analogue technology and produce fin art prints. Careful. If I noticed that, being vaguely bilingual, then others might too. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted April 15, 2014 Share #29 Posted April 15, 2014 Just recently I noticed something else in a similar context: The digital generation that I am exposed to actually shows genuine keen interest in understanding "how film and printing works"Another few generations further and there will hardly be anyone that has the experience and knowledge to pass it on I suspect. There are several forces at work that will prevent that last part from happening and one of them is that young people are really taking the traditional workflow seriously and are learning how to master it now, those young people are the future for passing this info on. The other force at work are companies like Ilford / Harman that are now implementing various networks like the new darkroom network, underwriting symposiums and likely will network educational aspects of the craft. The first word in the term "Alternative Process" is they key operative that will not only help black and white film to survive but really thrive....we need alternatives to using what the profit hungry world of digital provides. The sheer joy in using an actual darkroom over a Lighttroom readily provides that and the results truly speak for themselves... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted April 15, 2014 Share #30 Posted April 15, 2014 ...because it is all so "easy" and available to everybody. Andy Warhol once said that is why (at the time, film) photographers are self-loathing; they know all they do for their art is push a button. I gave my brother and his wife a wet print for their anniversary. He's been fishing for another, I think he wants it gratis. Isn't going to happen; I know how much work they take. s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted April 16, 2014 Share #31 Posted April 16, 2014 The Mono completely eradicated 35mm film for me. I used mainly Tri-X and Neopan, pushed between 800-3200 in D-76, scanned all film with dedicated film scanners, edited in Lightroom/ Photoshop and printed with a Canon 2500 on heavy 13x19 RedRiver papers with Canon pigment inks. I still use Tri-X in medium format but not for the qualities, MF was historically used over smaller formats, as here also the Mono eclipses MF film in detail and especially in sensitivity. Sure I can scan a well exposed, really sharp 120 film negative and get 40MP or higher resolution scans, but the acuity of the 18MP Mono sensor somehow still holds its own against these files. Comparing to colour sensors in the sub 20MP range, the Mono sensor really resolves finer detail. Compare an identical shot from a M9 and a MM and be in awe by the much higher acuity, the Mono delivers. I use MF film still for the formats and the look, which is not available in digital yet (a 6x6 digital Mono sensor back would a dream indeed). I really hope, Leica will introduce a Leica S monochrom some day - I'll buy one unseen, if it is based on similar technology as the Mono (no CMOS, but the old S2/ S based sensor in a monochrome variant, shooting up to ISO 3200). That would be a dream machine, coupled with classic MF lenses. The very only thing, 35mm film (and larger) have retained over the Mono is the behaviour in highlights. This by large though can be worked around, shooting strictly for the highlights with the Mono and lifting the underexposed files in post processing. The Mono files are by far the most robust, I ever came over - impressive really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted April 16, 2014 Share #32 Posted April 16, 2014 Victory! How right you are. Hope you enjoy many more RODINAL mornings. And evenings for scanning ... Best GEORG Yea, I know, but Victory doesn't quite make it. Unless you are a war reporter... I love the processing, but the scanning, I would rather break out the Focomat Ic, but thats the way it goes in this age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobirobo1 Posted April 18, 2014 Share #33 Posted April 18, 2014 Careful. If I noticed that, being vaguely bilingual, then others might too. Chris Oh ooohh it must have been late when I wrote that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted April 18, 2014 Share #34 Posted April 18, 2014 ... I really hope, Leica will introduce a Leica S monochrom some day - I'll buy one unseen, if it is based on similar technology as the Mono (no CMOS, but the old S2/ S based sensor in a monochrome variant, shooting up to ISO 3200). That would be a dream machine, coupled with classic MF lenses.... Oh no. Bite your tongue. I just used up my Monochrom savings account on a nice used S2. Where's the nearest bridge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted April 19, 2014 Share #35 Posted April 19, 2014 Oh no. Bite your tongue. I just used up my Monochrom savings account on a nice used S2. Where's the nearest bridge? No need - the S2 is a mighty fine camera It is only that it could be an even better one, if it couldn't do colour, just like the Mono being an incredible upgrade from the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lord Posted April 23, 2014 Share #36 Posted April 23, 2014 My main criticism of the MM is the grain - close up it looks artificial and "sprayed-on" as a layer with homogenous-sized particles, and unnatural compared with silver. Silver efex can mitigate this to a degree using tri-x film setting but that kind of reinforces the point... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted April 23, 2014 Share #37 Posted April 23, 2014 Anyone who was disappointed with the switch from 35mm film to MM is unlikely to be on this thread. They've probably gone back to film. Therefore, as a practical matter, the responses are drawn from people who are happy with the switch. And those who love the film, and not the digital look, would never make the switch in the first place, and also not be on this thread. I'm not commenting on the quality of anything; I'm just saying the pool of responses are likely from one direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charby57 Posted April 23, 2014 Share #38 Posted April 23, 2014 Steve, I beg to differ with your assumption. I do not see why someone who has been dissatisfied with the Monochrom experience wouldn't be responding to this question. I would suspect in fact the disillusioned photo grapher to still be tempted to report so. There are often comments from unhappy Leica users. I believe that the Monochrom is a real game-changer. Kindest regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honus Posted April 24, 2014 Share #39 Posted April 24, 2014 Back to the question asked by the OP... I've been using a hybrid workflow for a number of years, albeit with Minolta scanners and not an Imacon. Predominately I've shot Tri-X souped in Xtol with Leica M's and a Plaubel Makina 67. I had no complaints with my results with film, but have been intrigued with the Monochrom since it's introduction. I finally decided to take the plunge about a month ago and have shot with the Monochom exclusively since then. I have no regrets. I'm quite amazed, actually. I've been very happy with A3 prints on an Epson 3800 with my film scans. The Monochrom handles that size with ease. I think I'm going to need a bigger printer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruniroquai Posted April 24, 2014 Share #40 Posted April 24, 2014 Could You show me any images made by the MM which looks like analog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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