daure Posted April 18, 2014 Share #41 Posted April 18, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The main reason beeing certainly that they want to have only one "lens body" for the CS and non CS lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 18, 2014 Posted April 18, 2014 Hi daure, Take a look here Leica S2: just 4 fun or professional?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
satijntje Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share #42 Posted April 18, 2014 John, in terms of waking this thread up, did you get the S eventually ? and if so findings ? Did you consider the Pentax 645D and any thoughts here ? I am also thinking along the same line, although I love the X-Vario and also use the Nikon Df with a wide range toys The S is much more affordable now, and many used samples have been kept in mintish conditions and are available with dealer warranties. It would interest me to use lenses, and some vintage, from other manufactures. I would probably only use 1 or 2 actual Leica S-lenses due to cost. I rented a S2 with 70mm lens. AF is amazing good, IQ fantastic, but these are well known parameters. My main concern was weight and size, and after the S2 afternoon I came to the conclusion that the S is too heavy FOR ME! Maybe others will have more energy in their body to carry it all day long, but for me, the experience that I gained was that I will stay with my M240. In the mean time I have collected a new 50mm summilux, and this combo is for me the perfect leica solution for the time being. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 18, 2014 Share #43 Posted April 18, 2014 I rented a S2 with 70mm lens. You didn't just listen to forum chatter? Excellent. I attended a photo workshop many years ago and the best advice the instructor gave in response to numerous questions was "Try It." Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share #44 Posted April 18, 2014 Yes Jeff, thanks again. This was the best advice to get an answer. Great gear but not for me....... John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted April 20, 2014 Share #45 Posted April 20, 2014 The notion that an un-compromised camera system designed for more specific uses should somehow meet other widely versatile criteria is an oddity of today's photographic consumer IMO. Somewhere along the way we became lazy thinking and petulant in our demands for one thing to do all things equally as well. The S lenses were designed to produce the highest image quality/qualities … which is quite evident when applying digital corrections in post … they're minimal or almost non-existant compared to MF lenses from other companies … especially WAs. That S lenses are big is the penalty paid for that level of performance. If one doubts that, simply look at the massive size of the much praised Zeiss Otis for 35mm sensors. Zeiss has clearly stated that size was the compromise made to deliver such an optical wonder (and it isn't even an AF lens). It is also odd that we don't like such compromises, but accept others without much protest. Earlier, someone compared the Sony A7R with it's Zeiss designed FE55/1.8 as being the equal to the S because the Sony is newer sensor design. This perplexes me as I own and use a Sony A7R and three FE lenses including the 55/1.8. IMO, this is not even worth responding to. All I can manage is to advise … "See your Optometrist while you still can." : -) - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted April 20, 2014 Share #46 Posted April 20, 2014 The notion that an un-compromised camera system designed for more specific uses should somehow meet other widely versatile criteria is an oddity of today's photographic consumer IMO. Somewhere along the way we became lazy thinking and petulant in our demands for one thing to do all things equally as well. The S lenses were designed to produce the highest image quality/qualities … which is quite evident when applying digital corrections in post … they're minimal or almost non-existant compared to MF lenses from other companies … especially WAs. That S lenses are big is the penalty paid for that level of performance. If one doubts that, simply look at the massive size of the much praised Zeiss Otis for 35mm sensors. Zeiss has clearly stated that size was the compromise made to deliver such an optical wonder (and it isn't even an AF lens). It is also odd that we don't like such compromises, but accept others without much protest. Earlier, someone compared the Sony A7R with it's Zeiss designed FE55/1.8 as being the equal to the S because the Sony is newer sensor design. This perplexes me as I own and use a Sony A7R and three FE lenses including the 55/1.8. IMO, this is not even worth responding to. All I can manage is to advise … "See your Optometrist while you still can." : -) - Marc This sort of unnecessary, arrogant, condescending post from Marc is what drives people away from the forum. John was simply expressing some of his aspirations for his "ideal" camera given the limitations that come with age. He wants great IQ and a fun, quality camera, which is exactly what I want. Marc thinks this is a character flaw. His comments are completely inappropriate, pointless, petty and - well, to use his word - petulant. And if it's not worth responding to, why did you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted April 20, 2014 Share #47 Posted April 20, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) This sort of unnecessary, arrogant, condescending post from Marc is what drives people away from the forum. John was simply expressing some of his aspirations for his "ideal" camera given the limitations that come with age. He wants great IQ and a fun, quality camera, which is exactly what I want. Marc thinks this is a character flaw. His comments are completely inappropriate, pointless, petty and - well, to use his word - petulant. And if it's not worth responding to, why did you? My comments were not aimed at anyone, and in fact I used the word "we" which includes me … all over the web people keep on pining for things currently not possible rather than mastering the tools that are here now to make images. That you have taken on the task of policing other people's opinions, and doing so in such a personal, name specific manner, is what stifles people expressing any counter opinion unless it agrees with yours or the party line. You sir are the arrogant one to think you are the arbitrator of all opinions you disagree with in such a specific manner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted April 20, 2014 Share #48 Posted April 20, 2014 Actually, I take it all back … re-read my posts and they just didn't come across right at all … so I apologize to any and all offended. Just ignore them if possible. I appreciate the rebuke, and have taken it to heart. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted April 20, 2014 Share #49 Posted April 20, 2014 BFF then? I was perplexed at your earlier post because it seemed so contrary to your usual thoughtful, worldly, balanced opinions scattered throughout this forum and I mistakenly interpreted it as an affront to John who suffers with deteriorating vision, so the quip about the optometrist struck me as unkind and unfair. One of my flaws is rushing to the aid of others sometimes without thinking it through. I, too, apologize for my offensive comments. This exchange was good for one thing, for me at least. I took it upon myself to look at your website and am stunned at the images. Clearly you enjoy what you do and are very good at it. Wedding photography, seems to me, to be one of the most difficult fields within photography to master. You have done so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted April 20, 2014 Share #50 Posted April 20, 2014 The main reason beeing certainly that they want to have only one "lens body" for the CS and non CS lenses. That's what I remember reading in an LFI, a few years back. The S image circle (54 mm) could do with smaller lenses if it weren't for the leaf shutters. Personally, I'm not particularly bothered by the size of the S lenses and I really need the CS versions. I like Rolo's idea of a smallish general purpose/walk about lens, though. Such a lens would make it easier to bring the camera to more stealthy occasions. If it's a fast lens, in combination with a CMOS sensor it could open up another useful niche for the S system. Marc, I find your posts here and on other S-forums to be very informative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruniroquai Posted April 20, 2014 Share #51 Posted April 20, 2014 Marc, Could You give your thoughts about the A7R and 55? If the OP, the rest of people and You don't mind. I'm selling my whole leica and film equipment in praise of a new digital camera, affordable and with great IQ, the Sony sounds like what I'm looking for. What about the color? Near as good as the leica? I wish I could afford the S2 but maybe next year. I'm studding photography here in Spain and will realize a "master" in conceptual, artistic and documentary photography next September after my trip to India and Cuba (30yr present). I will keep my M6 and maybe the cron 35 IV, no need for more for my own pleasure but... Is the Sony really a pleasure camera? How pretty and big the images could be printed? For sure when I can I will buy a S2 and maybe X2/RX1 or whatever as a street and travel camera. So Sony A7R (or A7?) mainly for portraiture and street and some studio work. Better with the Zeiss ZA? or Maybe a good asph or APO design like the 90 (either M/R) or 75, or 50LA? I also have been considering the 60 macro elmarit, is just stunning, as the 50MP Zeiss is. Well sorry, and many thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackdlens Posted April 21, 2014 Share #52 Posted April 21, 2014 I recently decided to dive into the Leica S world. Sold ( and selling) my Hassey V systems including a cfv-50, for something I viewed more versatile ( easier to handhold, faster synch, weather resistant). This included saying goodby to the use of the CFV on GX680III (in hopes that the Sinar adapter will soon be available). I must admit, I feel a bit suckered by the $5000 off deal only to hear of the coming 40-50 Mb Leica S. Frankly, I was so mad when I heard this I was ready to sell the system. Of course in hindsight, why would a company suddenly make such an offer...so now I feel a bit stupid and angry since I went all in. Hopefully, some trade up deal will arise that won't be too painful. Sorry folks I needed to vent. Bruniroqua, The a7R is an impressive camera, renders amazing images, is extremely versatile with its ability to handle so many different lenses well with the addition of a simple adapter. The comparison of a MF sensor vs a SF sensor is very apples to oranges. Additionally, the cameras are really just for 2 different purposes. I carry my a7R everywhere, all the time...it is a fun camera to use. The S system is for what I will call for real 'work'. If I want an image I can enlarge to billboard size it will come off the S system. The one thing that could upset the apple cart would be a mirrorless MF camera (rumors flying that Sony may do just that). This would be a game changer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted April 22, 2014 Share #53 Posted April 22, 2014 Marc, Could You give your thoughts about the A7R and 55? If the OP, the rest of people and You don't mind. I'm selling my whole leica and film equipment in praise of a new digital camera, affordable and with great IQ, the Sony sounds like what I'm looking for. What about the color? Near as good as the leica? I wish I could afford the S2 but maybe next year. I'm studding photography here in Spain and will realize a "master" in conceptual, artistic and documentary photography next September after my trip to India and Cuba (30yr present). I will keep my M6 and maybe the cron 35 IV, no need for more for my own pleasure but... Is the Sony really a pleasure camera? How pretty and big the images could be printed? For sure when I can I will buy a S2 and maybe X2/RX1 or whatever as a street and travel camera. So Sony A7R (or A7?) mainly for portraiture and street and some studio work. Better with the Zeiss ZA? or Maybe a good asph or APO design like the 90 (either M/R) or 75, or 50LA? I also have been considering the 60 macro elmarit, is just stunning, as the 50MP Zeiss is. Well sorry, and many thanks. Answering such a question is so personal that I find it extremely difficult to do so. Obviously, the A7/A7R marks a milestone in photographic tools … massive resolution in a tiny package. I've nick-named my A7R with the FE55/1.8 … "Mighty Mouse". I've been using Sony cameras for some years now … starting with the A900 and currently the A99. So, aquiring this camera was less of a traumatic shift because I can use all of my ZA lenses via the Sony adapter made for it … and I am used to using an Electronic View Finder that the A99 introduced me to. The IQ from this camera has been much documented, and many think it produces some of the best out-of-camera color of any high resolution FF 35mm camera to date. Personally, I think it is okay, but not as earth shaking as all the internet hype would suggest. It is all technically there, but whether the aesthetics are to an individual's liking is a different matter altogether. One thing that many find irritating about the A7/A7R camera is the extremely complex interface … even when the custom buttons are all assigned to most used functions, you still have to enter the oddly irrational menu and slog through endless choices to perform simple tasks. The simplicity of many Leica cameras escapes Sony, and their insistence on stuffing their cameras with consumer level functions just adds to that confusion. Those that relish mastering a complex tool will no doubt find it a pleasure, I do not. A M camera is what I call a pleasure to use. After many years of using relatively complex Hasselblad H MFD cameras, I also found the Leica S2-P to be more of a simple pleasure to use. I much prefer that a camera disappear in your hands so that less stands between you and the subject. The best thing to do is try to actually handle one, or rent one prior to actually buying it. Good Luck, - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted April 22, 2014 Share #54 Posted April 22, 2014 I recently decided to dive into the Leica S world. Sold ( and selling) my Hassey V systems including a cfv-50, for something I viewed more versatile ( easier to handhold, faster synch, weather resistant). This included saying goodby to the use of the CFV on GX680III (in hopes that the Sinar adapter will soon be available). I must admit, I feel a bit suckered by the $5000 off deal only to hear of the coming 40-50 Mb Leica S. Frankly, I was so mad when I heard this I was ready to sell the system. Of course in hindsight, why would a company suddenly make such an offer...so now I feel a bit stupid and angry since I went all in. Hopefully, some trade up deal will arise that won't be too painful. Sorry folks I needed to vent. Bruniroqua, The a7R is an impressive camera, renders amazing images, is extremely versatile with its ability to handle so many different lenses well with the addition of a simple adapter. The comparison of a MF sensor vs a SF sensor is very apples to oranges. Additionally, the cameras are really just for 2 different purposes. I carry my a7R everywhere, all the time...it is a fun camera to use. The S system is for what I will call for real 'work'. If I want an image I can enlarge to billboard size it will come off the S system. The one thing that could upset the apple cart would be a mirrorless MF camera (rumors flying that Sony may do just that). This would be a game changer. Ugg! Don't you just hate when that happens? It isn't so bad when you buy a $3K 35mm camera and a few months later the next generation is announced … but at MFD prices the financial hit is an eye opener. I've had that happen a couple of times … like when I bought a Hasselblad H and less than a year later they offered the same camera with a free second lens which was just about the same $5K hit you just experienced. I've used a S2-P for about 4 years now, and will wait to see how the CMOS version of the S does before worrying about getting one. I'd estimate that to be at least a year or more away before it's available, and the initial bugs are worked out. I'm not one to be an early adopter of Leica Products anymore : -) On the other hand, I may just stick with the S2-P since I love what it does, and I really am not pressed for it to do more. Time will tell. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albireo_double Posted April 22, 2014 Share #55 Posted April 22, 2014 Wasn't it to be expected that a new S with CMOS sensor might be on its way when (a) Leica offer a $5000 discount on the current model and ( they already have a successful CMOS camera in the M240 and transfer of that technology is the logical next step, and © the major competitors have just announced MFD cameras with 50MP CMOS chips? The S (006) is just an iterative improvement of the S2, with better usability and a 1 stop ISO advantage, but otherwise, the sensor is 5 year old technology, on par with the M9 (which is not a bad thing, in some ways). So this was bound to happen and nothing to hate. The $5000 discount was the clearest signal they could have given...I am actually looking forward to the CMOS version but I don't expect it to be immediately available after announcement (in September?) - more like another 6-9 months later. So that's a year from now. I bet you'll make so many wonderful images with your recently purchased S that your "hatred" will go away. In the meantime, I'll happily continue using my 3 year old S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackdlens Posted April 22, 2014 Share #56 Posted April 22, 2014 Wasn't it to be expected that a new S with CMOS sensor might be on its way when (a) Leica offer a $5000 discount on the current model..... So that's a year from now. I bet you'll make so many wonderful images with your recently purchased S that your "hatred" will go away. In the meantime, I'll happily continue using my 3 year old S2. Yes I believe I admitted that in hindsight it was obvious, and I have no hatred...merely feel duped. I'm one of those people that prefers someone say 'hey in a year you will be able to buy the new 50 MP but right now you can get the 006 for $5000 off.' I consider Leica a high quality company, not one that resorts to gimmicks to sell products. This was my issue. I did take the S out yesterday to a salt marsh and slap Hasselblad CFE 120mm macro with bellows extension on it and was relatively pleased with the results. It will get a serious run at a model tomorrow to help decide which 3rd party lenses stay and which need to be replaced with Leica glass. I am looking forward to the Sinar adapter since I have a P2 ,but I am worried about the microlensing having an impact on tilt shift. Not sure if anyone has experience with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruniroquai Posted April 22, 2014 Share #57 Posted April 22, 2014 I've came back from a dealer and..z couldn't be more disappointed. It's not a Leica and the color output files on A2 lack of life or... I don't know how to call. Back to my Leica system, which is the most enjoyable I've ever used, and best lenses ever made. So i'm gonna start to save for a S2! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted April 22, 2014 Share #58 Posted April 22, 2014 I've had my S2 for a little over 2 months and (returning to the original question) I've used it professionally to shoot about 100 paintings. At $100 per painting, it has nearly paid for itself! The best ROI is time. I'm lucky to average 2 paintings per hour when shooting with my scanback 4x5. But the S2 gives me closer to 8 per hour. Most of that time is spent in post where the S2 requires a little more work. This is a case where BetterLight had done a bang up job on their software and profiled captures usually only require a 3 point tonal fine tuning to hit a perfect match. I'll get the S2 captures to that point but now I still have a color or two that needs minor tweaking after the tones are set. It's really just a matter of editing the S2 profile and then testing the edits. I still reach for my M9 for fun. Mostly because I've used M cameras for over 40 years and they are a hard habit to break. Then there is the matter of a new camera bag and a bigger ball head for my field tripod. Little details that seem to keep the S2 in the studio... for now anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaS2 Posted April 23, 2014 Share #59 Posted April 23, 2014 Crackedlens Sorry we didn't discuss the coming S sooner, before you took advantage of the $5,000 off offer. But I agree that you will have use of the camera for a year before many new S cameras are available. The fact that there are many current S2 users who are considering the offer even though they all know a newer S in coming is a tribute to how attractive that $5,000 off offer really is, and how much they like the S cameras. I think you made a good decision, even though without all the information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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