Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[Lenshacker]

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Image sensors, as other electronic components, are revised throughout their production life to solve problems just as this. The original Kodak sensors had very poor blue response, the sensor was revised with a new chemistry. The sensor changed depth, and the design of the new package accommodated existing cameras by keeping the image plane the same. Drop in replacement for existing cameras. It would be easy enough to substitute a more durable glass for the S8612 now used, keep the image plane the same, and implement required changes in firmware to account for difference in transmission.

[pop]

I was wondering how long it would take for the 'stop whinging' crowd to crash the thread.

 

This thread has not been crashed. There's no "stop whinging" crowd in evidence. Asking whether it was wiser to take coordinated action or to take that on a case by case basis is legitimate and consistent with the purpose of our forum. If the question appears to be critical, we're robust enough to withstand such criticism.

[pgk]

That said, Leica inevitably want to avoid a whole rush of cameras being returned. People who haven't read this thread will only approach them with the problem when they find it out for themselves, rather than when it is pointed out to them. Given that most Leica M9/MM/M-E owners will not have read this thread, this is a way of managing the rush back to Wetzlar.

So, how many people have cameras which actually do have de-lamination of their sensors? A lot of M9s have been sold so if it is endemic there should already be an awful lot afflicted according to this thread, although I assume there are are rare cases such as my own camera in which de-lamination has not as yet made itself known:rolleyes:.

[Paul J]

I think it's really important for people to understand and accept that people are upset and frustrated. Attacking members, moderators, or anyone else, is not going to help the situation at all.

 

This is the central and international discussion for the matter. It is where the press, leica themselves and non members, people who need to know what is going on, will be coming and if it descends into a cat fight people will not return. It will stop new members, people who are affected by it, joining to discuss and it will diminish our collective ability to resolve the matter. People need to be welcomed here without any sort or worry of fear to discuss the matter so we can transparently communicate the depth of it.

 

I think we also need to understand that people are prone to exaggerate in this instances because they fear the worst. It's normal and some leeway should be granted, at the same time people need to try and not exaggerate in these circumstances. Either way, just stop attacking people. Edit your posts and re edit if necessary.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Paul J

[wattsy]

So, how many people have cameras which actually do have de-lamination of their sensors? A lot of M9s have been sold so if it is endemic there should already be an awful lot afflicted according to this thread, although I assume there are are rare cases such as my own camera in which de-lamination has not as yet made itself known:rolleyes:.

 

 

All things are relative but the delamination problem is not uncommon and, I am reliably informed, it has become increasingly a worry for Leica this year.

Edited December 5, 2014 by wattsy

[plasticman]

There's no "stop whinging" crowd in evidence...

 

Seriously though, I'm amazed at the whining and whinging going on in this thread...So far my M9 has operated well for 3 years and taken a lot of images...I'm getting fed up of the whining and discontent:mad:.

 

As far as I was concerned, this sort of post discourages open and frank discussion of the problem, trivializes the difficulties faced by people with delaminating sensors, and generally does nothing to resolve or further the topic other than attacking those that have a real predicament which may have serious consequences for them financially or otherwise.

 

I didn't see it as helpful and criticized it as such. I'm amazed you went to the bother of criticizing my criticism.

 

btw if you object to my colloquial use of 'crowd' - give it time and usually a few other suspects will join in.

Edited December 5, 2014 by plasticman

[Guest]

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As far as I was concerned, this sort of post discourages open and frank discussion of the problem, trivializes the difficulties faced by people with delaminating sensors, and generally does nothing to resolve or further the topic other than attacking those that have a real predicament which may have serious consequences for them financially or otherwise...

Image sensors, as other electronic components, are revised throughout their production life to solve problems just as this...Drop in replacement for existing cameras. It would be easy enough to substitute a more durable glass for the S8612 now used, keep the image plane the same, and implement required changes in firmware to account for difference in transmission.

I agree with plasticman that the post accusing some people of "whining" trivializes the problem. But the second quote above is the other type of trivialization: if Leica could solve the de-lamination problem as easily as Lenshacker believes they would have already done so. Both types of trivialization have the negative effect that Paul J suggests in post #644 of diminishing our collective ability to help resolve the problem.

[pgk]

All things are relative but the delamination problem is not uncommon and, I am reliably informed, it has become increasingly a worry for Leica this year.

I have talked to a repairer who tells me that various sensors DO have problems (and these are varied and include moisture problems). And I'm quite sure that Leica are very aware of and seeking a solution to this de-lamination problem. What I have found frustrating in this thread is the hysteria and uninformed comment - and I use the words carefully, having read a lot of the comment.

 

And having read a lot of it I am personally unable to determine just how 'big' a problem it actually is - and I'd suspect problems such as this will inevitably manifest themselves in greater numbers as time goes by, cameras get older and people start to notice the 'white spots'. I still have no idea whether the problem is endemic and inevitable or whether it is sporadic and potentially triggered by an event such as wet cleaning (perhaps even by use of a solvent containing too much water). Some of the language used seems to indicate that the problem IS endemic, IS inevitable and will face ALL M9 owners who as a consequence have a fast devaluing asset - tell me I'm wrong!

 

However there are existing precedents regarding sensors which might suggest that this is not necessarily the case and I can think of at least one dSLR that is well known for sensor failure (due to the power it consumed and heating) but there are still examples running fine in spite of this - the manufacturer blamed a sensor batch.

 

I'd also like to see a lot more examples of the 'white spots' which indicate de-lamination rather than dust spots and I can't find all that many posted in spite of all the furore,

 

I'm not trying to trivialise the problem but it would be nice to see some really objective thoughts on how common/likely it actually is, and some constructive debate on what Leica might do about it (or what might be acceptable), when and if it happens. The fact that Leica are actually prepared to change the affected sensor for a similar one makes me suspect that they feel that the problem is not all that common.

 

So I'm happy to read rational and objective debate (as an M9 owner myself) but not hysterical, knee-jerk criticism (and I fully accept that those who actually have cameras with this problem will be upset and frustrated) which finally does nothing to solve the issue.

[M9reno]

The fact that Leica are actually prepared to change the affected sensor for a similar one makes me suspect that they feel that the problem is not all that common.

 

The fact that Leica are actually prepared to change the affected sensor for a similar one FOR A PRICE makes me suspect that they NOW FEEL that the problem IS VERY common.

 

(My additions in caps).

 

(If the problem was uncommon it would cost them very little to keep to their previous policy.)

[Manoleica]

Surely, the Sensor issue is similar to vehicle recalls. Nobody knows how many are actually affected. Not everybody reads or involves themselves with forums. Leica know how many cameras are Sold. Where they all are is a pretty impossible task.. But, they could involve their dealers to help put together a database of names, email & mail addresses. Those in the database base could then be contacted.. We are in 2014 -> communication is easy & worldwide..

[jdlaing]

Surely, the Sensor issue is similar to vehicle recalls. Nobody knows how many are actually affected. Not everybody reads or involves themselves with forums. Leica know how many cameras are Sold. Where they all are is a pretty impossible task.. But, they could involve their dealers to help put together a database of names, email & mail addresses. Those in the database base could then be contacted.. We are in 2014 -> communication is easy & worldwide..

 

Not even close.

For one thing, a defective or damaged sensor is not life threatening.

[edwardkaraa]

I totally agree that forum readers/contributors are a very small minority of the M9 owners. I am pretty sure many M9 owners have never cleaned their sensors, never thought to check their sensors for dust, those who did mistook the delamination spots for dust... etc.

 

Therefore the delamination issue, hopefully for Leica, will remain contained to a small number of people compared to the number of cameras sold.

 

However, it is almost certain that Leica has known about this problem since the early days of the M9. I don't know how many of you remember some of the early posts on this and other Leica forums, saying something like: "I sent my M9 to Solms for CLA, and Leica very generously replaced the sensor for me". Delamination was never mentioned but I have read such posts many times and always wondered why Leica is so generous that they replace the sensor just for a CLA.

 

I say, let Leica do their thing, and try not to make this problem into a big scandal. The owners have every thing to loose. Have the sensor replaced for free, sell the camera or keep it, but you don't want to devaluate it by making too much noise.

 

As the saying goes, what you don't know can't hurt you.

[Manoleica]

Not even close.

For one thing, a defective or damaged sensor is not life threatening.

 

Not All vehicle recalls are life threatening.

I was referring to the overall "communication" between the manufacturer & owner..

 

[bybrett]

So the CCD sensor is known to be defective and Leica has increased the warranty period from 2 years to 3 years to allow for this!

 

But if your sensor fails after this time you have to pay for a new defective part?

Edited December 5, 2014 by bybrett

[k-hawinkler]

I almost missed this useful thread!

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/355892-bookmarks-m9-sensor-corrosion-issue.html

[pico]

Here is more of mine, a spot on a different part of the sensor than that posted previously.

 

It is also interesting to see how the same spot develops. Here it is on April 17, May 25, and Dec 1, 2014. My camera was on extended warranty until June 2014, so I expect this will be treated as an in-warranty case, since the problem surfaces there.

 

That's the best documentation of the progressing fault. Many, many thanks for the good work.

.

[Lenshacker]

I agree with plasticman that the post accusing some people of "whining" trivializes the problem. But the second quote above is the other type of trivialization: if Leica could solve the de-lamination problem as easily as Lenshacker believes they would have already done so. Both types of trivialization have the negative effect that Paul J suggests in post #644 of diminishing our collective ability to help resolve the problem.

 

This is a problem with the type of glass used, it is sensitive to humidity. This is not a hard problem for an engineer to solve. Harder problem for marketing. I've never done the latter, but have had sensors and electronic components revised before. I'm sure this is going on internally between Leica and On technology. Simply producing copies of the same sensor without revision is not a long term solution. Revise the part, use a more durable glass, solve the problem. If BG-18 is not a potential candidate- there are others. Especially for the M Monochrom, the type of glass used for the M8 would be fine.

[jevidon]

Could someone link to the offer or update the first page? Lots of pages, little time to read every reply in here.

 

And while we are all at it, perhaps we could also provide a one paragraph summary of quantum mechanics.

 

This is a complex issue and many forum contributors have a lot of input to make on the subject; most of it relevant. If you don't want to put the time in to study up on the issue by reading the threads, then you shouldn't bother at all.

[jdlaing]

This is a problem with the type of glass used, it is sensitive to humidity. This is not a hard problem for an engineer to solve. Harder problem for marketing. I've never done the latter, but have had sensors and electronic components revised before. I'm sure this is going on internally between Leica and On technology. Simply producing copies of the same sensor without revision is not a long term solution. Revise the part, use a more durable glass, solve the problem. If BG-18 is not a potential candidate- there are others. Especially for the M Monochrom, the type of glass used for the M8 would be fine.

 

The glass is not the culprit. The coatings are the culprit.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

And while we are all at it, perhaps we could also provide a one paragraph summary of quantum mechanics.

 

This is a complex issue and many forum contributors have a lot of input to make on the subject; most of it relevant. If you don't want to put the time in to study up on the issue by reading the threads, then you shouldn't bother at all.

 

Fortunately 'pop' has a different approach...http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/355892-bookmarks-m9-sensor-corrosion-issue.html#post2837599

 

Referenced in post #640, for anyone following along here.

 

Jeff