Strange white spots on M9 sensor?

[wlaidlaw]

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I'm not sure if they can convert cameras with glued filters like M9/MM.

 

I will ask. I am taking my 1C Standard over to Protech to be recovered (at some point, someone had lacquered the original vulcanite) and a Contax 28-85 VS to have the dust removed.

 

Wilson

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[bocaburger]

Why? One can make a mask for any size adjustment.

 

I can see how it would work if the spots were all in the upper part of the frame and all the shots had clear sky in that part. But how would you make one mask that would be universally applicable to every different kind of shot...different colors, different contrast/brightness, and different details within the spots, such as person's face, or an eye?

Edited November 28, 2014 by bocaburger

[pico]

I can see how it would work if the spots were all in the upper part of the frame and all the shots had clear sky in that part. But how would you make one mask that would be universally applicable to every different kind of shot...different colors, different contrast/brightness, and different details within the spots, such as person's face, or an eye?

 

If the defects are one pixel each, or one pixel colum, then they are unlikely to move so in Photoshop one can make an action to select each defect, then sample the adjacent pixel, and spot the defect. Do it in batch mode for multiple files, saving to a dedicated folder if you like.

 

We can also create a Photoshop droplet of the action and drag file(s) or a folder onto it.

[getiton]

Anybody has pictures of what the corrosion looks like?

[Lenshacker]

Having just been told by Leica that my M9 which is in the repair department for upgrade to M9P will be delayed while they wait for a shipment of new sensors from Wetzlar, I now recall that the only cameras of mine that ever displayed the white spot phenomenon were my Nikon D70s, and my Leica M8, neither of which do I now own. I could never figure out what the problem was with these other two cameras since both had clean sensors on inspection with a sensor loupe. I just dealt with the problem by using spot removing techniques in Photoshop.

 

The ‘white spot’ phenomenon on my M8 did not shock me since I had already seen it on the D70s, so I dealt with it in post processing. When I saw it on my M9, I was a used to it by now. It was only on this forum and thread that I realized it was a problem with the sensor itself as admitted by Leica.

 

It was not until I had my M9 and came across this thread that I realized that other camera owners had the same problem. Now, on reflection, I realize that all three cameras used spectacular performing CCD sensors at their time of introduction and all were designed and/or manufactured by Eastman Kodak. Is that the common thread ( EK ) that is at the bottom of the ‘white spot’ phenomenon?

 

It’s something to ponder anyway, although there is little that can be done about now except to continue to replace the sensors until the supply runs out.

 

The M8 uses a sensor made by Kodak, and IR cover glass made by Kyocera, type B-7. The D70 used a CCD sensor made by Sony. The same sensor was used in the Epson RD-1.

 

The problems with "White Spots" might be more generic than just Schott S8612.

 

The Kodak DCS SLR/n used a CMOS sensor made by Fillfactory, used Schott S8612 cover glass, same as used on the KAF-18500. engineers from FillFactory set up CMOSIS.

 

This person shows the white spots on Schott cover glass used by the DCS SLR/n here:

 

How to destroy a kodak dcs srl pro sensor! Not yet.: Kodak SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

 

The problem of white spots in this 10+ year old camera do not seem to be widespread.

 

The datasheet for the KAF-18500 may be found here:

 

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/KAF-18500-D.PDF

Edited November 29, 2014 by Lenshacker

[M9reno]

p. 26: maximum humidity 70% RH.

[Paul J]

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I'm late to discovering this post, but only last week I was wondering why used M9 prices had fallen so much. My sensor has already been replaced and again it's covered in marks which I have not yet tried to clean only 1.5 years after it was replaced. What now? I send it off and another wait 3 months? And risk further time and financial burdens at a later date? This is highly unacceptable.

 

I feel like I have bought a £5K time bomb and lemon. I don't feel this is an acceptable resolution which leaves me with any confidence in the brand at all. I own a 10 year old Canon which has hardly been cleaned, ever, and yet it still functions flawlessly. Why would I choose a brand that is significantly more expensive to have a product which is considered "old" and at risk of severe financial burden only 3-4 years after its purchase. This is exactly the type of thing that people looking to buy into a brand look for and this could be a dire and catastrophic failure if the results of bad design decision, planning and response to issue show to be a risk and burden to buyers.

 

I am unsure, but also am of the belief that such a policy contravenes EU law. It's only a matter of time before that sort of thing ruins a company with a rotten public perception and for a high end, high priced elite brand even more so.

 

With the M8 fiasco also, this leaves me with no confidence in the brand at all for future, and it leaves me to question wether I will continue to chose Leica as the Brand that I invest in and rely upon for my profession. Something, at the current point in time, seems highly unlikely.

[fahadm]

From my private equity perspective:

Leica is a small company in terms of turnover, hence, cannot produce their sensors in-house like Sony and Canon. What Leica is doing at the moment, in terms of warranty and exchange offers, is nothing short of astonishing.

 

Electronics & digital gear is not designed to last 50 years (replaced rather than repaired). Man-hour repair rates in Germany are amongst the highest in the world. We manufacture smart-phone camera modules in China and Vietnam for a tiny fraction of EU costs (but we manufacture millions of low-resolution cameras per month, whereas Leica buys thousands of sensors per year).

 

The financial hit Leica is absorbing to maintain its reputation is massive for such a small/niche company. Private equity investors are short-term & return driven and do not tolerate deviations from business plans. I applaud the Leica board & executive management for admitting the issue and taking the honourable route.

 

Now as a consumer:

I was literally on the verge of buying a Leica colour body (to complement my beloved MM), but I opted to resurrect my Canon 5dii until there is more clarity on how wide-spread is this problem. Is it affecting 1%, 5%, 20% or 80% of M9 variants?

 

I hope Leica overcomes these financial strains and hopefully emerge with better sourcing and QA.

[edwardkaraa]

I myself was wondering how Leica will be able to sell the MM and ME, two current models using the same sensor. I think they will be discontinued very soon.

[bocaburger]

If the defects are one pixel each, or one pixel colum, then they are unlikely to move so in Photoshop one can make an action to select each defect, then sample the adjacent pixel, and spot the defect. Do it in batch mode for multiple files, saving to a dedicated folder if you like.

 

We can also create a Photoshop droplet of the action and drag file(s) or a folder onto it.

 

Yes I know all about if the defects are one pixel width and I said so numerous times, my point is these sensor spots can be much larger than one pixel, maybe hundreds of pixels. That is where I fail to see how a mask or action can be applied globally to image batches.

[bocaburger]

I was literally on the verge of buying a Leica colour body (to complement my beloved MM), but I opted to resurrect my Canon 5dii until there is more clarity on how wide-spread is this problem. Is it affecting 1%, 5%, 20% or 80% of M9 variants?

 

Apparently the possibility exists in 100% of them, the only variability is in probability. And even if that was 1%, how could you predict whether the one you buy is in it or the other 99% Why not just get an M240? They don't have the issue.

[fahadm]

Apparently the possibility exists in 100% of them, the only variability is in probability. And even if that was 1%, how could you predict whether the one you buy is in it or the other 99% Why not just get an M240? They don't have the issue.

 

I initially opted an M9-generation for its purity of purpose. Also to share batteries, chargers, accessories and a spare Luigi half-case

 

I couldn't care less for video, live-view and the extra weight.

 

Leica will definitely move towards bodies with WIFI and social-media connectivity (i.e. a smart camera with web/mobile connectivity). That is, to post directly to Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc...

 

The days where cameras were....cameras....will soon be over.

 

The market will force Leica to sell you "smart" bodies with an M-Mount (with wifi, 4G and the works).

[edwardkaraa]

 

Leica will definitely move towards bodies with WIFI and social-media connectivity (i.e. a smart camera with web/mobile connectivity). That is, to post directly to Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc...

 

The days where cameras were....cameras....will soon be over.

 

The market will force Leica to sell you "smart" bodies with an M-Mount (with wifi, 4G and the works).

 

This would never happen. They made the T just for that. At least, that's what I hope

[Lenshacker]

from Schott,

 

NIR cutoff filters for image sensors and night vision systems | SCHOTT North America

 

Two groups of glass, the first is for difficult environments, the second group provides better performance. Note that the first group is rated for 1000 hours of resistance.

 

Also note that these types of glass have been used for decades.I found some online specs of 90s vintage products using S8612. If this were a matter of the filters corroding from age, a lot of older cameras would be showing problems. The problem is more related to the types of metal salts required to manufacture the glass with the desired properties to use for visible light photography using silicon sensors. Leica needs to use a thin filter with steep cutoff. Narrows the chemistry down a bit, for Schott and for other glass houses.

 

On Semiconductor application note for sensor handling and cleaning:

 

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/AN52561-D.PDF

Edited November 29, 2014 by Lenshacker

[pico]

Bokaburger, you are right. The white corrosion spots are huge. I did not know until I saw a photo of the glass earlier today.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

I am glad my M9 is still good.

[M-Mount]

On Semiconductor application note for sensor handling and cleaning:

 

"CAUTION: If the sensor has an AR coating, please consult with your local ON Semiconductor office for cleaning glass instructions."

 

This sensor has AR Coating. Anybody contacted them?

 

"Caution on Cleaning Agents

• Use ethanol only to clean the image sensor lid glass. Other solvents can contaminate the glass, attack the resin and sealant, and degrade reliability of the package.

• Do not use acetone because it attacks the resin that glues the cover glass to the package.

• Do not use methanol due to its toxicity and low quality cleaning properties."

 

Eclipse contains methanol. Does methanol or isopropanol attack or remove the sealant?

Edited November 29, 2014 by M-Mount

[algrove]

Last year I sent my MM into Leica NJ CS for sensor cleaning. It came back with the sensor having been replaced without my requesting such. However I did say there were spots on my images. I commented on this under the M9 sensor problems thread.

 

So now am I supposed to understand that the sensor replacement date is now the new purchase date?

[k-hawinkler]

That's my understanding as well. Another 3 years to go for free from that replacement date.

 

My M9 will be 5 years old next month. So far no white spots. Knock on wood!

As I understand it at 5 years the sensor replacement costs would double from EUR 600 to 1200.

I hope it doesn't come to that.

Edited November 30, 2014 by k-hawinkler

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[M-Mount]

That's my understanding as well. Another 3 years to go for free from that replacement date.

 

My M9 will be 5 years old next month. So far no white spots. Knock on wood!

As I understand it at 5 years the sensor replacement costs would double from EUR 600 to 1200.

I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

+ VAT

[wlaidlaw]

That is not my understanding of the extended warranty. I thought we only got an extension of warranty for 12 months from the date of sensor replacement. In other words, since my M9 was new on 30 Oct 2009 and the sensor replaced in March 2012, I would now fall into the €1200 + €300 band for a subsequent replacement. In other words, more than the camera is worth.

 

I know people say that you should not expect electronic items to work for a long time but we have a 2004 PowerMac that is still working perfectly and a 1999 Canon digital camera which still works, as well as it ever did (not very well). I would have anticipated that a digital M should have had a minimum working life of 10 years and be reparable for longer than that.

 

Wilson