MF Grip FINALLY shipping to me Monday

[algrove]

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Just got the Leica Multifunction Grip M.

While waiting for the grip, I got used to the RRS BM240 base plate as a conveniently quick way to attach the M to a tripod head (or to the Arca Swiss Cube). That, of course, does not work with the MFG M

Now I'm thinking of getting the RRS MC-L plate.

Is it possible at all to attach the plate to the Leica M MFG without the machining described by algrove ?

 

Yes, it will attach with difficulty because the thumb screw projects from the grip base to insert into camera body due to the angle because it is held at one end by the fattening button for all bases.you can mark the thumb screw if there is no gap which is required by machining the RRS.

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[01af]

I have had an answer from Leica on the time sync to GPS. This only syncs at minute level, not seconds, so the actual second that the minute “rolls over” will be at random.

That's bullshit. Setting the camera's clock to the very second is no problem when doing it manually, with no multi-function grip installed.

 

So why are they telling us lies?

[wlaidlaw]

Olaf,

 

I am not sure in this case you are right. There is no setting for seconds or a “zero seconds” facility in date time in the menu but as you say, setting the minute always starts that minute at zero seconds. I checked by changing the minutes, accepting it and taking a photo immediately afterwards, which always shows minutes xx-01 seconds.

 

What Jesko said was that only the minute read out from the satellite syncs to the internal clock and the seconds read out is arbitrary, as that continues counting from the previously set seconds during the sync procedure. No it does not make sense to me either but I am sure he is not lying to me. It cannot be updated in firmware at any future time either, presumably as this is hardwired.

 

Wilson

[pico]

I have had an answer from Leica on the time sync to GPS. This only syncs at minute level, not secondsimprovement

 

 

Maybe Leica camera should build a friendly friendly relationship with Leica Geosystems.

 

Or fix their antennae.

[Guest redge]

What difference does it make, as a practical matter, whether the camera syncs to the minute or the second?

[wlaidlaw]

What difference does it make, as a practical matter, whether the camera syncs to the minute or the second?

 

If you are on a photo shoot with a number of cameras at say a theatrical performance or a music gig, you want to be able to sort the images in exactly the order they were taken with all cameras, then it is important that each camera clock is running at the same time to the second.

 

I am taking the still photos on a movie shoot next month and not only do I want my M8, M9 and M240 to be running at the same time but I want them to be running synchronised to the same time as the “Red” 4K video cameras.

 

For normal single camera use it does not really matter.

 

Wilson

[pajamies]

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The GPS location of photos seems to work nicely with the Leica MFG M.

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[wlaidlaw]

My GPS is nearly 10M wrong. I think I may have to send it back to Leica. :D

 

Screen shot from the Maps facility in Lightroom. I hope that Phase One will include a maps tab in Capture One V.8.0

 

Wilson

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[chris_tribble]

That's bullshit. Setting the camera's clock to the very second is no problem when doing it manually, with no multi-function grip installed.

 

So why are they telling us lies?

 

01af - you're wrong here - and no one is telling you lies! I can set my Canon's to the second. However, the M only allows Hours / Minutes. Seconds aren't available from the menu. I actually find this annoying when I'm syncing cameras for a specific shoot and want all of the shots to be in real-time sequence. However - I fear that there's nothing that can be done about this with firmware and it's (for me one of the few) a built in limitation.

[01af]

No it does not make sense to me either but I am sure he is not lying to me.

Yes ... after some more thinking and testing, I guess they are not deliberately lying but just blatantly incompetent.

 

Sure you cannot set the camera's clock to any arbitrary second—but you can wait until the next actual minute begins, then sync the clock to that. From then on, the clock will keep perfect time. It's the same with any digital camera's clock—with all digital clocks, actually (EDIT: except Chris' Canon)—and in no way specific to the M (Typ 240).

 

When switching on the GPS unit, or the GPS unit catches a satellite, it may happen at any arbitrary second within the current minute. So the firmware needs to see when the next minute begins, then synchronise the camera's clock with it. Other devices with GPS can do it, why can't Leica?

 

And furthermore, why is the error always approx. +20 s when GPS is on? I just synchronised the camera's clock with a radio-controlled clock to the second, with multi-function grip installed but GPS time sync off. Camera keeps perfect time. Switch GPS time sync on, and a few seconds later the camera's time is 56 s ahead of the actual time. A minute later, it's the usual +20 s ... or +19 s, to be precise. This was indoors—no valid GPS position recorded but the GPS time stamp is there, and unlike the camera clock, it's accurate. Step outside, wait five minutes—GPS time stamp still accurate, camera now +36 s ahead of the actual time. Why does the camera time shift by 17 seconds upon catching GPS position data when it allegedly can be adjusted in steps of full minutes only? (To tell the difference between camera time, GPS time, and actual time, take a picture of a radio-controlled clock's display, then compare the time seen in the picture to the time stamps recorded in the file's EXIF and GPS data.)

 

So what the heck is going on there? The problem definitely is not that the camera's clock can be set to full minutes only. Instead, Leica Camera totally screws it up. They just have no idea how to implement time synchronisation properly ... hey, they even consider it a good idea to include the time-zone setting in the user profiles

[Guest redge]

If you are on a photo shoot with a number of cameras at say a theatrical performance or a music gig, you want to be able to sort the images in exactly the order they were taken with all cameras, then it is important that each camera clock is running at the same time to the second.

 

I am taking the still photos on a movie shoot next month and not only do I want my M8, M9 and M240 to be running at the same time but I want them to be running synchronised to the same time as the “Red” 4K video cameras.

 

For normal single camera use it does not really matter.

 

Wilson

 

The Red will be running Time Code which is not set by GPS and can be quite artificial. You can't use the Red (or the production's audio recorder) to jam sync the Leicas because they, like DSLRs with video, won't accept jam sync. In any event, the clock generating Time Code for the Red and the audio recorder is more accurate (and rather more expensive) than the one in the Ms. On that subject, see this Sound Devices technical note on, among other things, drift in the Canon 5D Mk. II: Audio Performance of Canon 5D Mark II Camera

 

I don't see how GPS has any benefit in this shoot and I wonder why you don't just shut it off. The Leicas don't have to record real time to the second, just relative time. If the film crew doesn't know where it is (unlikely) and therefore wants to record lat/long info, it would probably be done with less hassle with a handheld Garmin

 

This is a not bad intro to Time Code if one wants something really concise: B&H Photo Video Pro Audio-Understanding TIME CODE- part I

 

P.S, I own a camera that generates Time Code, and a Sound Devices recorder that generates Time Code, and when I say that Time Code capable devices can't be used to jam sync an M, I am not just speculating

[pajamies]

My GPS is nearly 10M wrong. I think I may have to send it back to Leica. :D

 

Screen shot from the Maps facility in Lightroom. I hope that Phase One will include a maps tab in Capture One V.8.0

 

Wilson

 

Just tested the accuracy of the Leica MFG M GPS in my yard, and the result was very good, pinpointed the camera location with 1-2 meter accuracy

[wlaidlaw]

 

I don't see how GPS has any benefit in this shoot and I wonder why you don't just shut it off. The Leicas don't have to record real time to the second, just relative time. If the film crew doesn't know where it is (unlikely) and therefore wants to record lat/long info, it would probably be done with less hassle with a handheld Garmin

 

Redge,

 

This part of movie involves Geotagging and buried smugglers loot, where the stills are going to be inserted into the final cut, with GPS maps of where we are on location in Cuckmere Haven. I have read the script plus story boards and no I don’t quite understand what the writer/director, who is an old friend, is trying to achieve but no doubt it will be OK at the end of the day. I will just do what I am told.

 

I was getting a bit nervous when my MF grip had not arrived until a few days ago and thought I was going to have to shoot the GPS tagged stills with my wife’s V-Lux Since the entire budget for the movie has been spent on hiring the Red 4K video camera and lenses, there was none left to hire another still camera with GPS if needed. The cast are all working for free, as am I. Any proceeds from showing the film, like this director’s previous efforts, all go to a charity.

 

Wilson

[01af]

I don't see how GPS has any benefit in this shoot and I wonder why you don't just shut it off.

No need to shut off GPS altogether—just switch off automatic GPS time syncronisation and set the camera clock manually. That's what you're going to do with the M8 and M9 anyway.

[wlaidlaw]

Olaf,

 

That is exactly what I am going to have to do but it would have been easier if Leica had got it right in the first place. What we intended to do was to watch the time change on the GPS M240 clock and set the others to that, both M8, M9 and Red. I will just now set them all to Red time. I have just printed off a copy of the Red 4K manual, so I can be familiar with the equipment on the day we are on location (weather dependent - needs to be a clear sunny winter day - snow would be even better if there is any).

 

Wilson

[Guest redge]

Olaf,

 

That is exactly what I am going to have to do but it would have been easier if Leica had got it right in the first place. What we intended to do was to watch the time change on the GPS M240 clock and set the others to that, both M8, M9 and Red. I will just now set them all to Red time. I have just printed off a copy of the Red 4K manual, so I can be familiar with the equipment on the day we are on location (weather dependent - needs to be a clear sunny winter day - snow would be even better if there is any).

 

Wilson

 

You might find it helpful to speak with whoever on this film is responsible for syncing picture and location sound. It will be either the cinematographer or the sound recordist, quite possibly the latter. Assuming that that person intends to sync by running Time Code, and probably a slate as backup, he or she will be in a position to tell you how time is going to be handled. He/she will also be able to take into account your still camera needs, if so inclined. I suspect that the first thing he/she will ask you is why it makes any difference if the time on the Red and sound recorder differs a bit from the time on your Ms. I can't reiterate strongly enough that the purpose of Time Code is to sync camera and sound, not to tell people what time of day it is.

 

If some of your photographs will be used in the film itself, those photographs are obviously the priority. You can either turn on GPS for them or record the GPS data separately with a Garmin and use that data in post. It's the movies, you can do whatever you want

 

You may find the Red manual interesting, but if you get drawn into the ins and outs of Time Code without needing to, let me warn you that you will get your head tied up in knots. If you are the person responsible for syncing the Red and sound, by all means go ahead, but you are in for a steep learning curve. It would be easier to find someone who will simply tell you what to do on a mechanical level and stay away from the intricacies.

 

Of course, if there will be no sync sound recorded on this day of the shoot (that is, it will all be wild sound), then things are a lot simpler.

 

Cheers

[pop]

There is software which adjusts the TOD data in your shots after the shooting. All they need is the offset to apply. Towards that end, you need one of more shots of a visual time source.

[wlaidlaw]

There is software which adjusts the TOD data in your shots after the shooting. All they need is the offset to apply. Towards that end, you need one of more shots of a visual time source.

 

Philipp,

 

Do you know the name or maker of that software?

 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pop]

I personally use GPS4cam (the Android incarnation, with the local part running on the Mac). This one may not be useful enough as it synchronizes the pictures to the closes full minute or some such; I haven't checked whether this can be changed.

The other one is GPSPRUNE. It has a frightful user interface but it lets you time-adjust and localize your pictures, or so they say.

I rather suspect that there must be more; I'd have a look at any software which positions pictures on a map.

The concept is simple: (for each camera) find one photograph that you can time exactly. Use the difference between your "true time" and the photograph's time stamp to adjust all of a shooting to the same time scale. This presumes, of course, that the difference of the differences at both ends of the session are negligible for your purpose, i.e. that the camera does keep the time, albeit roughy so.

[jrp]

I have the opportunity of getting one of these, which I was hoping to do for improved camera handling and perhaps flash sync (as much as remote shooting and GPS).

 

There are a few comments here that focus on these aspects, but I wonder whether those of you that have the grip and have used it for a bit find that it really improves the handling (whether or not used with the finger rubber band) or whether you find that it just adds bunk to the naked camera.