dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #81 Posted November 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) So why are you still buying this expensive trash? IQ (glass mainly) and FF physical size. Final imagine is killer. And that's all that matters to me in the final analysis. The process to get there I'll bitch about if it's unecassary fraught and buggy. Especially if I'm paying an obscene premium to get there. I don't buy the 'hand made' argument either. Before robots, the difference between hand made goods of quality was the price. The cheaper stuff was made with lesser materials and less trained staff - it was not very good. The really expensive stuff was made of high quality material and was of exceptional quality. Think Saville Row etc. Now that robots can produce high QC with low price doesn't mean companies are allowed to produce low QC with a high price and claim to be the cheaper hand made companies of old. That's just bogus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 13, 2013 Posted November 13, 2013 Hi dwbell, Take a look here Strap lugs still an issue. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted November 13, 2013 Share #82 Posted November 13, 2013 Ok - so you would buy a 12.000 $ M? I would not. That is the kind of price you would have to pay for humans to match robot consistency. The fact is that you do not pay a premium. Given the different production methods the profit per unit in percents is probably quite comparable between Leica and Sony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #83 Posted November 13, 2013 Ok - so you would buy a 12.000 $ M? I would not. That is the kind of price you would have to pay for humans to match robot consistency. The fact is that you do not pay a premium. Given the different production methods the profit per unit is probably quite comparable between Leica and Sony. Lot of 'facts' in there Jaap. 12000 USD just to stop the lugs falling off? CRIKEY! I received a 75 Summarit with a large black blob of glue on the outer front element, right in the centre. Cost of QC? One look through the lens, not mounted, no robots, just in your hand. Get real. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted November 13, 2013 Share #84 Posted November 13, 2013 Ok - so you would buy a 12.000 $ M? I would not. That is the kind of price you would have to pay for humans to match robot consistency. The fact is that you do not pay a premium. Given the different production methods the profit per unit in percents is probably quite comparable between Leica and Sony. Dislike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 13, 2013 Share #85 Posted November 13, 2013 Lot of 'facts' in there Jaap. 12000 USD just to stop the lugs falling off? CRIKEY! I received a 75 Summarit with a large black blob of glue on the outer front element, right in the centre. Cost of QC? One look through the lens, not mounted, no robots, just in your hand. Get real. How do you check strap lugs by looking through the lens? Full quality control can only be obtained by pulling the camera apart - or by double checking each and every step of the production process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #86 Posted November 13, 2013 How do you check strap lugs by looking through the lens? Full quality control can only be obtained by pulling the camera apart - or by double checking each and every step of the production process. More deliberate spin Jaap? I expect better. Probably I shouldn't. My lens example was a separate demonstration of how crude the QC could be to stop problems - yet how, apparently, even that level isn't being achieved. Your stance seems to be that this level of bugs, glitches, problems, poor QC etc is the best that can possibly be achieved at this price point? If that's true, then yeah, I want out. I've had three bodies and all have had problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 13, 2013 Share #87 Posted November 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ok - so you would buy a 12.000 $ M? I would not. That is the kind of price you would have to pay for humans to match robot consistency. The fact is that you do not pay a premium. Given the different production methods the profit per unit in percents is probably quite comparable between Leica and Sony. Just making stuff up doesn't help with your credibility, Jaap. The uncomfortable truth is that, like the vast majority of us in this forum, you don't know the first thing about serial manufacturing (whether hand assembly or made by robots). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted November 13, 2013 Share #88 Posted November 13, 2013 Just making stuff up doesn't help with your credibility, Jaap It might not help with his credibility but it provides consistent and ongoing entertainment value for his many admirers. As a loyal and awestruck Jaapatista I doubt I'd keep coming back to the forum if it was devoid of his high-wire escapades in defence of Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Muller Posted November 13, 2013 Share #89 Posted November 13, 2013 Ok - so you would buy a 12.000 $ M? I would not. That is the kind of price you would have to pay for humans to match robot consistency. The fact is that you do not pay a premium. Given the different production methods the profit per unit in percents is probably quite comparable between Leica and Sony. ...so for the sake of argument I wonder why they just don't build the stuff with robots? Better quality, bigger output, more consistency...less staff hassles etc etc...or is the 'hand made in Germany' sticker part and parcel of the 'luxury' goods mystique, that and fancy packaging, custom made variants et al? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted November 13, 2013 Share #90 Posted November 13, 2013 Leica is what it is. Dirty sensors out of the box. Calibration usually necessary out of the box with very fast glass (1.4-0.95). General quirkyness. Accept it or move on. If it's so annoying then get a A7/A7R and be happy. I fought the Leica quirkyness when I had a MM + 50/35 SX. It was annoying as hell. But it is what it is. The camera was better than ever after it came back from Solms. Now my M240 + Nocti 0.95 needs to be sent back. Yup. Not too happy about that, but the calibration is slightly off from 2m to infinity, and especially from 5-10m to infinity. Only when shooting wide open at 0.95 of course, but that's why I bought this lens to begin with. Am I pissed off? Yes, sort of. Did I expect it when I purchased the camera and lens? Yes, I acutally expected that I had to send both back to be 100% satisfied, so I wasn't surprised. Would I have gotten a Sony A7/A7R instead? Never ever. Does alternatives exist? Yes, the Fuji X-Pro1 has a OVF that mimicks a rangefinder. BUT IT ISNT A RANGEFINDER! It's just a viewfinder with electronic guesstimate grids displayed on the glass, and you have ZERO clue if what you think is in focus actually is in focus. Will Sony and the other guys make a full frame rangefinder camera to compete with the M? NEVER. They don't earn much money on the camera bodies themself, they make money from selling LENSES and other accessories (like battery chargers since it is more common that they are not included). So why on earth would they make cameras that generates lens sales for Leica?!? Basic business 101: THEY WON'T. So stop complaining and just accept it or move on is my advice. Argueing on the internet will get you nowhere. http://images.topix.com/gallery/up-R15SJ0FU7KTLD0B2.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #91 Posted November 13, 2013 Ok, I'll modify my previous to read; When buying into Leica products, you should know in advance that you will need to accept a higher than normal level of bugs, glitches, problems, poor QC, dirty sensors, bad calibration etc. This is the best you can expect at this price point. The only thing you can do is suck it up, or buy a cheaper reliable 'robot assembled' solution like Sony. Welcome to Leica - a tool for life, sort of, maybe, some of the time. I'm sure they'd be thrilled. Personally I think that they can and should do better, with the methods they already have, and the price point they are already at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted November 13, 2013 Share #92 Posted November 13, 2013 Personally I think that they can and should do better, with the methods they already have, and the price point they are already at. Well what do I care what you personally think about Leica? Write to Leica about it. Maybe they care enough to listen? I or many of the other people on this photography forum actually can't make a difference. So why whine to a bunch of people that can't make any changes when you can write Leica directly at and make your statement to the people that actually can make a difference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #93 Posted November 13, 2013 Well what do I care what you personally think about Leica?Write to Leica about it. Maybe they care enough to listen? I or many of the other people on this photography forum actually can't make a difference. So why whine to a bunch of people that can't make any changes when you can write Leica directly at and make your statement to the people that actually can make a difference? I don't know - you obviously care enough to read and reply to my personal opinion on a forum full of whiners that makes no difference. Which seems kinda odd to me. How do you know I'm not talking directly with Leica? And this forum, we're told, has the eye of Leica and indirectly influences their decision making. But what do you care. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted November 13, 2013 Share #94 Posted November 13, 2013 I don't know - you obviously care enough to read and reply to my personal opinion on a forum full of whiners that makes no difference. Which seems kinda odd to me. How do you know I'm not talking directly with Leica? And this forum, we're told, has the eye of Leica and indirectly influences their decision making. But what do you care. But you've become somewhat akin to a rabid chihuahua and it's becoming tiring and annoying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted November 13, 2013 Share #95 Posted November 13, 2013 But you've become somewhat akin to a rabid chihuahua and it's becoming tiring and annoying. Haha! Brilliant. I'll back off for a while then. Good to know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 13, 2013 Share #96 Posted November 13, 2013 Anybody can say anything they want about Leica, good or bad, but I want a camera that functions as advertised and keeps functioning where I do not have to fiddle with it to keep it capturing images for me. But when a camera does not function as advertised (as has been the case with 3 M's for me) then it is poorly designed and barely tested in factory and in the environment. Hand made or robot made it makes no difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted November 13, 2013 Share #97 Posted November 13, 2013 Never had a speck of oil on my D600.... There's no doubt that a percentage did not. I don't know what the percentage is. And the internet is a great magnifier of problems. Whatever the case, Nikon changed the shutter mechanism to address the concern after one year on the market. Best, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Emile de Leon Posted November 13, 2013 Share #98 Posted November 13, 2013 Leica is like a religion.. Just say you don't blindly believe in it..and the chosen few..rise up to quell..the blasphemer.. But the facts cant be ignored.. So.. What the hell happened to Leica QC..?? As the prices went up..the QC..went...down.. Makes sense to me..! But.. I can see why the current owners of digital M's want to keep all this under wraps.. They what to see Leica M keeps going..and not have lost sales there for the manufacturer..bringing up the possibility that the M line..may have a possible ending point/discontinuation in the future..the end.. They want to see that Leica keeps makin em..no matter what the problems.. So I guess..Leica keeps pumpin em out..and people keep payin their hard earned shekels..and then sending the cams back and forth..for simple fixes..like lugs fallin off.. That's the new Leica parameter.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted November 13, 2013 Share #99 Posted November 13, 2013 Leica is like a religion..Just say you don't blindly believe in it..and the chosen few..rise up to quell..the blasphemer.. But the facts cant be ignored.. So.. What the hell happened to Leica QC..?? As the prices went up..the QC..went...down.. Makes sense to me..! But.. I can see why the current owners of digital M's want to keep all this under wraps.. They what to see Leica M keeps going..and not have lost sales there for the manufacturer..bringing up the possibility that the M line..may have a possible ending point/discontinuation in the future..the end.. They want to see that Leica keeps makin em..no matter what the problems.. So I guess..Leica keeps pumpin em out..and people keep payin their hard earned shekels..and then sending the cams back and forth..for simple fixes..like lugs fallin off.. That's the new Leica parameter.. OK Leica had a problem with the lugs, did a recall to fix, and presumably modified/corrected subsequent production. Since then, how many instances have there been of lug failure? One to my knowledge, that of the OP (for whom I do have every sympathy). It's always possible that this is an unhappy one-off. Suppose that the revised/modified lugs had been installed from the start, how many failures would we have recorded? Maybe just one (this one). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 13, 2013 Share #100 Posted November 13, 2013 It's always possible that this is an unhappy one-off. Suppose that the revised/modified lugs had been installed from the start, how many failures would we have recorded? Maybe just one (this one). Suppose….recorded? That argument makes no sense from a sensible man. The lug nut issue should have been caught by factory beta testing of some sort, period. It was embarrassing for Leica to say the least. Sure it got fixed (we hope), but it should have been caught by the factory and not good customers like me! Now I have the EVF issue which also should have been fully tested by the factory. Keep in mind this is the same company that told me to my face in August that the lock up and subsequent dimming of the EVF for 3 more off/on cycles did not exist. There is definitely something amiss at Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.