Difference in color between DNG and JPG

[Max Penson]

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Max, I can get beautiful ripe apples with jpegs from Nikon and Canon. Why do I HAVE to use DNG if I want my Leica apples ripe as well? You say it's a conscious and informed decision from Leica? To degrade jpegs images? What is the exact motive behind that? These Leica people are even more unfathomable than I thought.

 

The more it goes, and the more they work at the crippled M8, the worse it gets for us, average Leica fans, with average means and average patience. That's what I say in another thread, they are working hard at making this M8 a highly specialized and very expensive system, to be sold only to very wealthy professionals. And they are going to shoo away potential ordinary buyers, like me. Woud I buy an M8 today after learning all that I learned in the last six months? NO!

 

I would really appreciate if you could do the experiment, I just looked at your images, and at some reference M8 colors I have, and I think the greens weren't that way in the old firmware. May have something to do with IR setting.

 

Thanks,

[holgerf]

I would really appreciate if you could do the experiment, I just looked at your images, and at some reference M8 colors I have, and I think the greens weren't that way in the old firmware. May have something to do with IR setting.

 

Thanks,

 

Max, it has nothing to do with IR setting. Why can’t you just believe what other members have found out? Please, read once more my first article wirth the examples.

 

To prove my statement that it has been from the beginning see the examples of this article which were shot with 1.06 immediately after buying at November 5th. DNG is with C1 original profile from PhaseOne, no corrections, no IR filters. Samples were shot during dawn in afternoon 4 p.m. ISO 160 therefore with tripod.

 

Please look at these details that should not been greenish at all:

• wheel covers of the Twingo

• white wall in the background

• the cobblestones (I may send you one, just für comparison )

 

The green bushes look like illumininated which they weren't and the color of my car can only be called WRONG.

 

Let’s face it. Leica has less experience in color rendition than others. Read their official statement to the AWB problems:

 

"Leica is aware that the AWB needs to be improved. Improving the current AWB algorithms did not prove to be a promising way to come to a satisfactory result. Therefore Leica is working on a new setup of algorithms to come to a reliable AWB function. Intensive tests have still to be made, therefore we cannot give a specific launch date at this time."

 

I hope that their future progress in handling AWB will also lead to better JPGs.

 

Best

Holger

 

Sample JPG

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Sample DNG

[smokysun]

these are not idle questions. reviews of the canon xti say the jpegs are so good there's little advantage in shooting raw. sean reid said the jpegs with the ricoh gdr so good it made up for the fact the raw write time intolerably long. and boy, can you get a lot more jpegs for your money.

 

i've a fuji f6000fd which costs less than three hundred dollars. you can shoot jpegs at 800 iso comfortably and 1600 if you shoot raw. ten time zoom, etc. super macro.

 

the problem is we live in the time of throwaway digitals until a real perfection arrives. leica between a rock and a hard place. the lenses are what really count, and even they may not be able to keep up with the cost. the nikon 200 built like a tank. sure, it's heavy, but the samsung compacts built the same even if the picture quality low.

 

i remember how disappointed i was in the build quality of the d2 and d-lux 2 when i got them. leica will have to figure out how to build a great camera in cambodia to compete.

 

my thoughts any way. even 5 r lenses on the 20d have a hard time competing with the weight, size, convenience and features of the fuji. (true, i've always like fuji color, especially in slide days.)

[Jamie Roberts]

Leica is obviously messing with the White Balance and JPEG conversions, and have (maybe?) regressed a bit on the JPEG colour with WB presets in this last firmware.

 

Anyone please try this with a good *custom WB* and JPEG? Then we'll see how far out the JPEG processor really is.

 

BTW--if you're using Average Wrong Balance for the JPEGs, well, it's just messed up right now, and is probably still low on the firmware update requirements list.

[Bob Ross]

Tss, tss, tss... It's the exact same shot, DNG + jpeg basic. Hey, they have the same number. There.

Hi Oliver,

One explanation is that the DNG and JPEG differ in native size, presumably evenly around the borders and that my composite is indexed to the lower left hand corner and not centered. I didn't expect it to be as offset as it turned out or that the apple would turn to a typical apple color where it overlapped. An accidental art form?

The odd thing in looking at the examples shown here is that I tend to prefer the JPEG of most and both versions of your apple work for me. It is certainly more than a WB situation. When IR cut filters over correct, green creeps in as can be seen on some TV studio programs and for the JPEG color profile this might be the case. Adding a second profile for the IR-on would probably help. I shoot a mix of DNG & JPEG depending on the subject and lighting (no IR filters) and usually fool with the color afterwards, so sometimes the JPEGs are closer to what I am after, rather than the various raw profiles. As a hobbiest, at least I can take it as good fun,but I can appreciate that for a pro it would not be fun.

Bob

[holgerf]

Leica is obviously messing with the White Balance and JPEG conversions, and have (maybe?) regressed a bit on the JPEG colour with WB presets in this last firmware.

 

Anyone please try this with a good *custom WB* and JPEG? Then we'll see how far out the JPEG processor really is.

 

BTW--if you're using Average Wrong Balance for the JPEGs, well, it's just messed up right now, and is probably still low on the firmware update requirements list.

 

Jamie,

what do you mea with good custom balance? Did you read my first article with teh samples?

 

Thanks

Holger

[Max Penson]

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Max, it has nothing to do with IR setting. Why can’t you just believe what other members have found out? Please, read once more my first article wirth the examples.

 

To prove my statement that it has been from the beginning see the examples of this article which were shot with 1.06 immediately after buying at November 5th. DNG is with C1 original profile from PhaseOne, no corrections, no IR filters. Samples were shot during dawn in afternoon 4 p.m. ISO 160 therefore with tripod.

 

Please look at these details that should not been greenish at all:

• wheel covers of the Twingo

• white wall in the background

• the cobblestones (I may send you one, just für comparison )

 

The green bushes look like illumininated which they weren't and the color of my car can only be called WRONG.

 

Let’s face it. Leica has less experience in color rendition than others. Read their official statement to the AWB problems:

 

"Leica is aware that the AWB needs to be improved. Improving the current AWB algorithms did not prove to be a promising way to come to a satisfactory result. Therefore Leica is working on a new setup of algorithms to come to a reliable AWB function. Intensive tests have still to be made, therefore we cannot give a specific launch date at this time."

 

I hope that their future progress in handling AWB will also lead to better JPGs.

 

Best

Holger

 

Sample JPG

[ATTACH]33640[/ATTACH]

 

 

Sample DNG

[ATTACH]33641[/ATTACH]

 

Excellent Holger,

 

Look, every color system is depended on E temperature. E is something like 5400K, so the WB algorithm needs to balance the channels for E. Once that is done successfully, the color LUT will work as planed. Of course, if the WB failed to do so, the colors would go nuts as your excellent image show.

 

But, this is not what I am trying to say here, it is important to understand that the M8 colors are designed to look a certain way. The C1 profile didn't came from nowhere, it is based on the colors Leica has designed (although there are some differences - or errors). Once C1 has found the correct WB, the colors will be displayed as designed by leica.

 

So, to the problem is WB, not colors. There is a difference.

 

The image included is a plot of the LAB color space of a Colorcheck 24. blue is leica jpeg, magenta is C1 with M8 ICC, and yellow is the Colorcheck24 real life colors. I just want to make sure you guys understand that certain colors were designed to be faithful to real life and other were designed to look as leica wanted. You may like it or you may not.

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[sps]

One thing I have not seen mentioned hear is the JPEG setting for saturation that was used in these pictures. Just curious if it was in standard?

[holgerf]

Excellent Holger,

 

Look, every color system is depended on E temperature. E is something like 5400K, so the WB algorithm needs to balance the channels for E. Once that is done successfully, the color LUT will work as planed. Of course, if the WB failed to do so, the colors would go nuts as your excellent image show.

 

But, this is not what I am trying to say here, it is important to understand that the M8 colors are designed to look a certain way. The C1 profile didn't came from nowhere, it is based on the colors Leica has designed (although there are some differences - or errors). Once C1 has found the correct WB, the colors will be displayed as designed by leica.

 

So, to the problem is WB, not colors. There is a difference.

 

The image included is a plot of the LAB color space of a Colorcheck 24. blue is leica jpeg, magenta is C1 with M8 ICC, and yellow is the Colorcheck24 real life colors. I just want to make sure you guys understand that certain colors were designed to be faithful to real life and other were designed to look as leica wanted. You may like it or you may not.

 

Max,

 

after all you describe - and Thanks! for your clarifying words - I still don’t know whether or not you agree with the only statement I made: that the JEPGs of the M8 are mostly unusable and far different from the results with DNG (only color I mean), regardless of the reason for this.

 

BTW: "in my former life" I had to do with HiFi high end equipment, especially with speakers. I guess everybody who seriously dealt with acoustical phenomena and how to measure them knows that there it is hard if not impossible to describe and measure everything your ear is able to hear. At those days I made one experience with technicians: it’s hard for them to accept that people may hear differences in the acoustic results of equipment if they were not able to measure it at the same time

 

Best

Holger

[holgerf]

One thing I have not seen mentioned hear is the JPEG setting for saturation that was used in these pictures. Just curious if it was in standard?

 

The examples I showed all the settings were "normal".

 

Best

Holger

[jonoslack]

The examples I showed all the settings were "normal".

 

Best

Holger

 

Hi Holger

I've had quite good results with jpgs (although I haven't shot them for some time)

BUT

I think that they're designed to be used WITHOUT THE FILTER! The slight boost to the greens is very reminiscent to what you get when using a filter.

I also feel that normal settings aren't great.

 

I'd be interested in your apple if shot with medium-low contrast, medium-low colour saturation and no filter.

 

I might even try it myself!

[holgerf]

Hi Holger

I've had quite good results with jpgs (although I haven't shot them for some time)

BUT

I think that they're designed to be used WITHOUT THE FILTER! The slight boost to the greens is very reminiscent to what you get when using a filter.

I also feel that normal settings aren't great.

 

I'd be interested in your apple if shot with medium-low contrast, medium-low colour saturation and no filter.

 

I might even try it myself!

 

Hi Jono,

 

the apple as shot by hamamm. By examples were all woth setting normal. As already statet the geens have been there also withot using filters; see sample with the to cars in the street.

 

Best

Holger

[Eoin]

I'm gob smacked by the results you guys are reporting, so much so that I shot jpg today. The first thing I noticed is the using preview in OSX was I had to assign the sRGB profile to the image before it would display correctly even though the colour space was set to sRGB in the M8, all other settings saturation, contrast, sharpness were set to Std.

 

I noticed a slight greener hint in in the greens in the Jpegs but not to the extent shown by others. Below are some samples of one image brought through various converters without processing other than convert & resize for web and the internal M8 jpeg brought through the same converter but just resized for web.

 

1. M8 Jpg through Aperture

2. M8 Raw through Aperture

3. M8 Jpg through Lightroom

4. M8 Raw through Lightroom

5. M8 Raw through C1 Pro Std Leica profile.

M8 was set on AWB and B+W 486 filter fitted.

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[Bob Ross]

I'm gob smacked by the results you guys are reporting.

Thanks for the examples. They follow what I have been seeing. My "simple" JPEG workflow for snap shots is to open them in Irfanview, pick the ones that I want and save at 100% (PC-Win XP). I do my PP in Picture Window Pro. Most of my JPEGs are quite acceptible, where I don't screw up the contrast and WB. I have noticed the green/yellow balance a bit and there is some smearing of fine detail in the mid-tones (as spotted by Jono with grass), that can be fixed. DR in JPEG is also better than usual for JPEGs. I usually shoot at medium low contrast and build the contrast up in PP. Contrast and saturation camera settings seems to have been adjusted (increased, I think)with the new upgrades. Reading of the imbedded color profile by various software might be a factor.

Bob

[Jamie Roberts]

Max is correct here--this is a WB issue (leaving aside all the RAW converter variants for a moment).

 

So, yes, I've read all the posts And I'll ask again: has anyone tried this with a custom WB set for the JPEG?

 

IOW, has anyone gone to the menu, set the M8 for Manual WB, shot a white object under the key light, accepted the WB as set, then made a shot in DNG and JPEG?

 

I strongly suspect any of the major colour differences here are due to WB.

 

Having said all that, once you have a JPEG you have so much *less* to work with it isn't funny. I always use RAW for critical images.

[bradreiman]

Jamie-I do that all the time and its the best white balance I can get in jpgs. The DNG are good either way...B

[skunkworks]

And I'll ask again: has anyone tried this with a custom WB set for the JPEG?

 

IOW, has anyone gone to the menu, set the M8 for Manual WB, shot a white object under the key light, accepted the WB as set, then made a shot in DNG and JPEG?

 

I strongly suspect any of the major colour differences here are due to WB.

 

this is what needs to be done, and i'm surprised that with all the complaining no one has tried. this is the ONLY way to get truly "accurate" white balance, hence balanced color overall.

 

i do not own an M8 (yet...) but my D2 and every other digital camera i've used must have the white balance customized in order to get the best results.

 

also, since white balance effects jpeg but not dng files, there is going to be a visible color difference between them no matter how accurate the correction.