Lightroom and the M8 - yellow cast to RAW

[stevme]

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Well Erwin decreed not to use the filters, so I removed the IR cut filter from my 28/2.8 pancakge lense.

 

The result? The same yellowish cast I noticed when I used my 35 Summilux before the filter issue was announced. To be sure, black synthetics are magenta, but grass turns yellow as do other things green.

 

I've tried changing the develop mode of Lightroom from "As Shot" to "daylight" for my daylight shots, but the color is still off. With the IR cut filter, colors are much truer.

 

To me, Erwin is wrong in stating that you can leave the filter off, unless you encounter some dark synthetics. Grass and trees, too, don't look right from a hue perspective with the IR cut filter put away.

 

Has anyone else had the same experience? Any suggestions for use of the M8 with Lightroom without the filters as Erwin suggests?

 

Steve

[ho_co]

Steve--

Your observations are on target.

 

We always need to temper another person's ideas with our own. Maybe for Puts's shooting the filter is generally unnecessary, but for you that may not be the case.

 

I would rephrase Erwin's ideas as: "Be prepared to remove the IR-cut filter when it isn't necessary" instead of "Be prepared to use the IR-cut filter when necessary."

 

We know that some lighting--e.g. tungsten--produces a great deal of IR, and that some plants reflect a great deal of IR. And we have to balance those facts with the fact that any filter will produce reflections in some situations.

 

See the first image in http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/17549-using-ir-creatively.html for an example of an image where the IR may enhance the picture and certainly doesn't detract from it; and where the filter would definitely have had deleterious effects.

 

In other words, Erwin is one of the best technicians around; I always come away with a better understanding after reading his comments. But I always need to see how his thoughts apply to my photography.

 

--HC

[losta]

Have you tried adjust the HSL settings? The RAW preview is just a starting point. Have you manipulated the sliders? There is alot you can do there. But if your not getting what you want without the filter and with the filter it is more pleasing to you I would go with whatever is best for you not what Erwin P. says.

 

I just bought some filters, got tired of waiting for Leica so I bought one of each size I need and when the Leica ones come I can use those on other lenses but grass here is hardly green yet and no new leaves. All should be different in a few weeks.

[stevme]

Steve--

Your observations are on target.

 

See the first image in http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/17549-using-ir-creatively.html for an example of an image where the IR may enhance the picture and certainly doesn't detract from it; and where the filter would definitely have had deleterious effects.

 

--HC

 

Howard

 

I agree those images you linked to are effective and appealing.

 

What got me going was that I was simultaneously shooting with a 10D with a telephoto attached, and color balance in those photos is just fine (also shot in RAW and developed through the Camera Raw facility that I believe Lightroom uses along with Photoshop).

 

I guess its a learning curve -- stay away from black synthetics and green grass. Maybe the M8 profile used in Lightroom will be updated to remove the color cast.

 

Steve

[msole]

Has anyone else had the same experience? Any suggestions for use of the M8 with Lightroom without the filters as Erwin suggests?

 

I do not use the filters. But I do notice a strong yellow cast with tungsten shots in Lightroom. Strangely enough when I work with the identical pictures in Aperture, the yellow cast is gone. I'm afraid this issue is related to Lightroom's interpretation of the M8 color profile. I like Lightroom, but I'm ready to switch over to Aperture to end the hassle with the yellow cast.

 

Magdalena

[jaapv]

Well Erwin decreed not to use the filters, so I removed the IR cut filter from my 28/2.8 pancakge lense.

 

The result? The same yellowish cast I noticed when I used my 35 Summilux before the filter issue was announced. To be sure, black synthetics are magenta, but grass turns yellow as do other things green.

 

I've tried changing the develop mode of Lightroom from "As Shot" to "daylight" for my daylight shots, but the color is still off. With the IR cut filter, colors are much truer.

 

To me, Erwin is wrong in stating that you can leave the filter off, unless you encounter some dark synthetics. Grass and trees, too, don't look right from a hue perspective with the IR cut filter put away.

 

Has anyone else had the same experience? Any suggestions for use of the M8 with Lightroom without the filters as Erwin suggests?

 

Steve

 

 

Green is strongly affacted by IR, especially in spring. Erwin is wrong in asserting only black is aafected

[ho_co]

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I don't want to become philosophical on the matter, but obviously that's what I'm up to--so you'd best quit reading here.

 

None of us is consistent because nothing remains the same. Puts says the obvious in his Leica Lens Compendium: A) a filter can only degrade the image (quite aside from the fact that we may need the filter for an effect or for its protection); but this degradation seldom occurs, and then primarily only when light sources are in the picture.

 

At the time, I would guess that most of us opted not to use filters except when necessary. Now there's a new kid on the block and we need to rethink the situation. There is no "always-right" or "always-wrong" answer. The solution depends on the image.

 

I think EP has a tendency to do what I often do: Overstate the situation to get the audience's attention, and then give the grounds for the audience to understand both sides of the matter. The problem is that it's easier to focus on the brief, pithy overstatement than on the details. In addition, Mr Puts and I may not be shooting the same subjects, so his and my expectations may be far different.

 

But then again, I probably shouldn't even be here because I'm not using Lightroom and can't share your annoyance at the Puts/Lightroom/reflection contradictions.

 

--HC

[Guest sirvine]

Magdalena,

 

Why not just create another calibration in lightroom with less yellow for when you use the M8 without filters and apply that to the unfiltered shots? Do you know how to do this?

[jonoslack]

Hi There

I'm still not convinced that the trade of between the cyan corners and the yellower greens is necessarily going to be worth it for wide angles.

 

However, in most situations I think the filters do produce better results on longer focal lengths, in some circumstances the filters seem to produce a bluish tinge which is no more natural than the yellowish one you get without it!

 

here are two shots - one with a filter, one without:

 

 

The first shot is without a filter - I simply did some tweaking of the HSL values in Lightroom to match them. The most important seem to be the hue values for Yellow and Green - in each case they need increasing slightly to match the filtered version.

 

Having said that, I did some tests taking a patch of grass, printing the results and putting them back on the grass! Looking at the prints away from the grass, the filtered ones looked much more realistic, but putting them back on the source, the unfiltered ones looked closer to reality.

 

I'm afraid that there isn't really a simple yes/no answer here, but at least one shouldn't be frightened into thinking that it isn't worth taking shots of foliage without a filter.

[msole]

Magdalena,

 

Why not just create another calibration in lightroom with less yellow for when you use the M8 without filters and apply that to the unfiltered shots? Do you know how to do this?

 

 

No, this sounds GREAT! Would you mind explaining? I was ready to abandon Lightroom for Phase One altogether...

 

Thanks!

[jonoslack]

No, this sounds GREAT! Would you mind explaining? I was ready to abandon Lightroom for Phase One altogether...

 

Thanks!

 

Hi There

Right - I'm a simple guy, and for the shot above I simply increased the yellow hue by +49 and the green hue by +40 - but this was an intentionally extreme case (I've found that evergreen leaves are the worst culprits).

 

I have a default preset, which adds +10 to each, but IR varies, and I find that works for most foliage.

 

But for many shots of foliage in normal lighting, the colour seems just fine.

 

If one got perfection by using the filters, then I'd just settle for them - but it's a complicated issue, especially with wide angle lenses.

 

I hope this helps

[msole]

Hi There

Right - I'm a simple guy, and for the shot above I simply increased the yellow hue by +49 and the green hue by +40 - but this was an intentionally extreme case (I've found that evergreen leaves are the worst culprits).

 

I have a default preset, which adds +10 to each, but IR varies, and I find that works for most foliage.

 

But for many shots of foliage in normal lighting, the colour seems just fine.

 

If one got perfection by using the filters, then I'd just settle for them - but it's a complicated issue, especially with wide angle lenses.

 

I hope this helps

Dear Jono,

 

Thanks so much! That's very interesting.

 

I've also been struggling with the issue that filters do alter the image positively, but at the same time they change the source, and sometimes that's not really what I want in the end.

 

Magdalena

[msole]

Magdalena,

 

Why not just create another calibration in lightroom with less yellow for when you use the M8 without filters and apply that to the unfiltered shots? Do you know how to do this?

Dear Sirvine,

Would you mind explaining how to automate the calibration?

Thanks so much!

Magdalena

[Artichoke]

is that it alters the color balance of the other colors in the photograph that are not foliage, particularly yellows and colors with yellows in them such as oranges & even flesh tones

I also have used this approach, but employing ICorrectEditPro's PS plugin which makes the color adjustment more selectively as it adjusts only colors of a distinct spectral range

still to get the best results I find it best to use the history brush and return the non foliage colors to their original pre-adjustment

with the ir/cut filter I have consistently found the color of foliage quite accurate, which should not be surprising as the culprit is the M8's exceptional sensitivity to ir ...I have seen no downside to using the ir/cut filter, which I only have for my coded 21 Elmarit and my 135 Tele Elmar

when I get the other ir/cut filters they will stay on my lenses, except perhaps for nocturnals with strong point light sources, though I have not experimented yet with these