NY Times Article About Leica Ms

[Angora]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So I just have one question...why all the anger?

 

Probably because having a readership involves responsibilities; even more so when someone writes about a device that he is supposed to own.

 

Trying to explain an unfamiliar crowd, in a simple way, what’s all the fuss about Leica? Great idea. Good for Leica too. Using shortcuts and outright doubtful comments? Bad idea. Bad for Leica too.

 

Just like there’s a difference between scientific vulgarisation, a noble doing which aims at making complex matters more accessible to the public, and scientific falsification.

[chrism]

Seems to me to be the kind of article that anyone who knows about Leicas will find fault with, but should, all the same, be glad that it was published as it might find a couple of new customers for Leica.

 

As for the Huffwells of the world, they are making a living by writing what brings in the donations and the advertising revenue. I don't have to go to their sites, so I don't. I guess I'm just a negative person! And I don't have to cope with the extra negativity that would have come from buying a badly glued movie lens with an M-mount that must still upset at least one poster in this thread.

 

Chris

[MarkP]

And I don't have to cope with the extra negativity that would have come from buying a badly glued movie lens with an M-mount that must still upset at least one poster in this thread.

 

Chris

 

Oh that was cruel and unnatural punishment .

 

I do think though all of Stevens previous comments about that 'lens-that-shall-not-be-named' were genuine and well-meaning. And it's now ancient history.

[Jeff S]

[Regarding RickLeica's commentary]

 

Cameras and lenses haven't been the limiting technical factor for most photography for some time now. IQ is more than sufficient, with other considerations like form factor, ergonomics, viewing experience, etc. far more relevant in choosing gear. Making good pictures is another matter. And the printing end adds another dimension.

 

Even E. Puts, one of the most technically oriented reviewers around, has come to this same conclusion, commenting about his increased boredom over reviewing minute differences between otherwise very competent gear.

 

The internet forums will always be populated by folks more taken with GAS than pictures, and there's probably nothing wrong with that if that's what floats their boat. I enjoy the forums, and reading reviews, etc, but fortunately that activity has little to do with my real interests in photography, which pre-date all the internet chatter, and haven't changed much over the years.

 

Jeff

[Ecaton]

.......................... We are all hobbyists that are trying to master a craft. We have invested a lot of time and effort trying to understand the technical aspects of photography in order to produce great files. But, all of this technical writing found in reviews is fast approaching a point where it has nothing to do with creating a great technical image..

 

Technology is at the point that a RX1 set to "auto" can take a better technical picture than a $13,000 Leica system. This is the point that we risk losing our hobbyists' interest in photography. Most of the fun may well be gone for a lot of hobbyist at this point, when anyone can master the hobby to a high degree, and anyone can have the technology that the hobbyist worked so hard to understand and own.

 

So, these sites have always been into the performance art like that of HiFi audiophile esoterica. This has been enjoyable for me. I freely admit to enjoying the mostly male perverted behavior of liking to understand how to get the most out of my hobby along with the enjoyment of having the equipment that is the best at doing this. ..................

 

 

Thought provoking and in spirit close to what Kirk Tuck posted on his blog recently.

 

Quote: ".......Part of the technical race came to a (maybe temporary) end. The proofs of quality that showed the equation of mastery were handed in and graded and that part of the course was over. See how big I can print this? See how sharp it is?

 

The contingent that is driven to do photography to prove their technical mastery (and it's a much bigger segment than most will acknowledge) and their understanding moved on to embrace the noble battle against noise and there's been a circular series of spasms empowered with endless energy, driving the expansion of ISO's that one can use to capture a scene. Every time the ISO scale gets ratcheted up the noise comes howling back in like a pack of wolves attacking a frail cabin door and the noble knights of noise saddle up and do battle with noise reduction software, exposure schemes to the left or right, and many other fixes. The battle isn't about producing a wonderful photograph as much as it is about creating a "proof" (using the word in a mathematical sense) which shows off the victory over noise at each setting.

 

And the marketers for the camera makers have proven really good at creating the "problem" of the quarter for techie photo enthusiasts and providing the (inventory) roadmap for its subsequent solution. ....."

[IkarusJohn]

I enjoyed the article.

 

I don't read Ken Rockwell, and I wouldn't have quoted him, but people seem to enjoy him. I don't like Sean Reid's site at all, and people enjoy him too - each to their own. I also thought the first coupled range finder from Leica was the M in 1954, not the Leica I from 1932, and I'm not sure having the lens element close to the film increases sharpness (what do I know or care), but his reasons for enjoying his M9-P pretty much match mine.

 

I'm sure having some background facts wrong and quoting a self-publicist has no impact on his enjoyment of his camera, his photography, or the point of view from the article, which by the way, I agree with.

 

Cheers

John

[iforum]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

"Every time the ISO scale gets ratcheted upthe noise comes howling back in like a pack of wolves attacking a frail cabin door and the noble knights of noise saddle up and do battle with noise reduction software".......as we promptly pick up our smartphones to post a picture:p

[colonel]

Thought some might like the article.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/08/technology/personaltech/leica-cameras-have-eye-popping-prices-with-photos-to-match.html?_r=0

 

 

 

 

Technology is at the point that a RX1 set to "auto" can take a better technical picture than a $13,000 Leica system. This is the point that we risk losing our hobbyists' interest in photography. Most of the fun may well be gone for a lot of hobbyist at this point, when anyone can master the hobby to a high degree, and anyone can have the technology that the hobbyist worked so hard to understand and own.

 

So, these sites have always been into the performance art like that of HiFi audiophile esoterica. This has been enjoyable for me. I freely admit to enjoying the mostly male perverted behavior of liking to understand how to get the most out of my hobby along with the enjoyment of having the equipment that is the best at doing this.

 

Problem is: The RX1 ruined it for me. It made me realize that we have stepped across the threshold into the realm of - anyone-can-do-it now. It being, to make a technically "perfect" image without knowing anything with a relatively cheap camera. Something was lost for me the day I bought that camera. Expect more of this coming at you fast.

 

.

 

I would slightly disagree in that the top DSLRS have been taking wonderful technically good pictures at f4 and above for sometime now.

The RX1 just makes the package smaller and it is one of the best and most innovative cameras around at the moment IMHO.

 

However I believe that 90% of a photograph is composition. A tool that lets you get on with this is what photographers are after.

I think what you are referring to is the tweak side of photography.

Whether its fiddling with photographic paper to lens, settings or PP, many people really enjoy this stuff.

 

The nice thing about the M series is the ancient mount which allows the usage of decades worth of ancient lenses. Comparing them technically is often assanine but it just the fun of different draws. Perhaps like changing speakers and amps on a good hifi changes the nature of the sound but doesn't make it better one way or the other.

 

That's what I like about the M series. The workflow and the lenses. The latest CMOSIS sensor at least relaxes the sensitivity range somewhat.

 

Comparing technical specs will never lead to Leica. The only thing that can kill the system is if Leica take the boutique pricing too far into the stratosphere.

 

I found the first part of this review fun:

Fuji x100s Review :: A Camera Walks Into A Bar • Photography By Zack Arias • ATL • 404-939-2263 • studio@zackarias.com

[skuromis]

However I believe that 90% of a photograph is composition. A tool that lets you get on with this is what photographers are after.

Strongly agree here, technical perfect photos are often too clean and have no soul.

What matters is composition, light, etc. How to let a photo tell a story? There is no auto mode serving this matter. And how to teach a camera to take imperfect photos to express something?

It certainly helps though, if you understand and properly use the tools you've got.

Don't lose the overview, on what is available/ new... there might be a better camera/ lens for your purpose (keep your mind open). And that's what I read reviews for.

[Rick]

I would slightly disagree in that the top DSLRS have been taking wonderful technically good pictures at f4 and above for sometime now.

The RX1 just makes the package smaller and it is one of the best and most innovative cameras around at the moment IMHO.

 

I agree, the DSLR has been part of the hobby portion of photography which involves spending huge amounts of money, investing large sums of time understanding how to use these types of cameras, and lugging them around for the sole purpose of getting the best file... when a smaller camera would suffice if, all you were interested in was composition and the creative side of things. When creating the best technical files can be done with a cheap small camera, who will care about huge DSLRs anymore? That time is arriving fast.

 

However I believe that 90% of a photograph is composition. A tool that lets you get on with this is what photographers are after.

I think what you are referring to is the tweak side of photography.

Whether its fiddling with photographic paper to lens, settings or PP, many people really enjoy this stuff..

 

Yes, I am talking about the fiddly side of photography. That is what has driven much (all) of the industry for years. And, I am one of those persons you refer to that enjoy this stuff. But, the RX1 changed it all. A photographer no longer needs to lug around a $7,000 camera to achieve the best files. It can be bought for under $3,000 and soon we will have FF PAS cameras under $2,000 that will create the best files. And, after that they will cost $1,000. And, more to the point, you won't have to know what you are doing to get the best files. Everyone will be able to do it. We are fast approaching that point.

 

The nice thing about the M series is the ancient mount which allows the usage of decades worth of ancient lenses. Comparing them technically is often assanine but it just the fun of different draws. Perhaps like changing speakers and amps on a good hifi changes the nature of the sound but doesn't make it better one way or the other.

 

That's what I like about the M series. The workflow and the lenses. The latest CMOSIS sensor at least relaxes the sensitivity range somewhat.

 

Comparing technical specs will never lead to Leica. The only thing that can kill the system is if Leica take the boutique pricing too far into the stratosphere.

 

Again, I agree with all of this. I just wonder, how does the business of selling expensive tweako cameras work when you will be able to take these same wonderful old lenses and put them on a $1,000 camera and take as good a file as a $7,000 camera? The tweako side of the hobby kind of loses some of its zing. What will be the fun of owning a $7,000 camera when your neighbor can take as good a picture with his $1,000 camera. Or, for me at least, the travel photographer, why not take the RX1 or what ever it is that lets me put a couple of lenses on it?

 

In a few years, I'm pretty sure when I'm on vacation I'm not going to be snickering at all of the DSLR carrying tourists with their backpacks full of gear and lenses. Most of them will have small cameras and smart phones. I believe, high end cameras users will soon go the way of the audiofile. That industry is pretty much dead. Most everybody has moved on as music reproduction has gone off in a different direction for the vast number of consumers.

 

 

 

For now, we are left to enjoy the technical side of producing a great file. Oddly, this involves a bunch of men sitting around in front of their computers posting passionately and obsessively about the technical side of photography. This is the strange part of our hobby that drives the camera business and also the kind of personal comments directed at Steve and the guy from the NYT. Strange that the deep passion and emotion resides in the gear instead of the art.

[naturephoto1]

 

I believe, high end cameras users will soon go the way of the audiofile. That industry is pretty much dead. Most everybody has moved on as music reproduction has gone off in a different direction for the vast number of consumers.

 

 

The High End Audiophile is far from dead. There are still many of us involved and the ultra High end is growing and separating itself from the more normal High end. Many are moving to using a computer and Music Servers. Digital players may also be on the decline. Though a much smaller part of the market, vinyl and high end turntables are also still alive and well (though in much smaller numbers than in the 1980s and 1990s as are a relatively small number involved with Reel to Reel. The largest part of the market though is moving toward Home Theater and multichannel music playback. Blu-ray and multi format digital disc players are the norm for many. Additionally, High Resolution music discs to a lessor extent and High Resolution digital downloads are becoming more common place as recorded disc formats are on the decline.

 

Rich

[colonel]

Rick, I agree with you largely but audiophile hifi does still exist and even in the mainstream (eg richer sounds in the UK). The self assembly computer market was big but is also very small now.

These specialisms don't go away, they just fade to small when the mass market reaches a kind of quality equilibrium.

Leica is so tiny small I expect it is fairly safe and I will still get pleasure f@rting around

[Rick]

High end audio is dead. I lived through the glory years of high end audio. What is left of this industry is very small. The large percentage of companies are gone. Sure, there is still some sign of life in the hobby still twitching, but sales for this industry as a whole is very much dead.

 

At this point, music lives on computers and phones for most. That is the main way most consumers listen to music. My point is, the majority of hobbyists in this sport have exited the building. The way people listen to music and how they listen to music has largely changed.

 

For anyone who wants to hear high end audio, the technology has gotten so good that the laws of diminishing returns has wiped out the high end. High end audio can be had by the masses for pennies.

 

Photography as a hobby is heading the same way.

[macjonny1]

 

Yes, I am talking about the fiddly side of photography. That is what has driven much (all) of the industry for years. And, I am one of those persons you refer to that enjoy this stuff. But, the RX1 changed it all. A photographer no longer needs to lug around a $7,000 camera to achieve the best files. It can be bought for under $3,000 and soon we will have FF PAS cameras under $2,000 that will create the best files. And, after that they will cost $1,000. And, more to the point, you won't have to know what you are doing to get the best files. Everyone will be able to do it. We are fast approaching that point.

 

Again, I agree with all of this. I just wonder, how does the business of selling expensive tweako cameras work when you will be able to take these same wonderful old lenses and put them on a $1,000 camera and take as good a file as a $7,000 camera? The tweako side of the hobby kind of loses some of its zing. What will be the fun of owning a $7,000 camera when your neighbor can take as good a picture with his $1,000 camera. Or, for me at least, the travel photographer, why not take the RX1 or what ever it is that lets me put a couple of lenses on it?

 

 

For me, it definitely has a lot to do with the experience of using a particular camera, and the happiness that brings. I owned the RX1 and it's a nice camera but it didn't give me a lot of joy to use it. Same with my D800E....now gone. Now, it's down to my M240 and a film M. People bring up the car analogies all the time with Leica...but it's really applicable in a lot of ways although cliche now. Any car can get me here to there just fine. Why spend more on a luxury car? Why do I own a turntable and have purchased two in the last 4 years? Why to people buy a Summitar to use on their brand new Monochrom? Maybe it's all a good thing with technology....maybe it will help us concentrate on the "art" and less on the "gear." Then, we can all just pick the tools that we enjoy using the most.

[anupmc]

High end audio is dead. ...

 

I beg to disagree.

 

High-end Audio is well alive and kicking like never before. They really address a segment of the market that's somewhat immune to any global economic shifts (like many high-end designer brands)... esoteric brands of Electronics, Speakers, Cables, even new computing based platforms... And all even pricier then ever before.

 

Attend the annual Munich event to get a real taste for how well high-end audio is doing.... attendance both by exhibitors and visitors has never been greater year-on-year

[Peter H]

.............

High-end Audio is well alive and kicking like never before. ............ And all even pricier then ever before.

 

........................................)

 

And that is no doubt why, to most people, it truly is dead.

[colonel]

And that is no doubt why, to most people, it truly is dead.

 

Richer sounds makes hifi affordable and is all over the uk, just because currys doesn't do it and Laskys doesn't exist just means the nature of the hobby has changed.

Allmost everyone I know has a goodish hifi somewhere in their house even if its denon and marantz.

 

High end specialist photography will always exist. Again, most of my colleagues at work have a decent camera, probably ones photo forum people will sneer at, like canon 550d or Nex-5, but its fairly obvious to anyone who has ever looked at a smartfone picture on a PC screen that they are rubbish and we haven't even got into depth of field, macro and all the specialist subjects that most folk can appreciate.

The fact that the smart phone has replaced the compact camera, the same as the iPod/phone replaced the Walkman means nothing, if anything it means there is more interest in photography then ever before.

 

Anecdotally there seem to be more photo exhibitions on in London over the past year then I have ever seen before.

[Peter H]

..............

Allmost everyone I know has a goodish hifi somewhere in their house even if its denon and marantz.

 

....................

 

We know very different people.

 

Hardly anyone I know, except for a few older people around my age, has anything that anyone would ever think of describing as hi-fi.

[pico]

Hardly anyone I know, except for a few older people around my age, has anything that anyone would ever think of describing as hi-fi.

 

That is because so many of us are near deaf! The USA veterans hospital gives every Vietnam era veteran free hearing aids. We had no protection (except certain MOS') I dearly miss hearing.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AJB]

This is an amazing thread, that has ranged from Leica to Rockwell Huffing and puffing, through to Hi FI.

 

This forum is always entertaining.

 

Surely we all know that free advice (Rockwell, Huff et al) is worth pretty much what we paid for it. Does not stop it being interesting free entertainment. The internet at large is after all just entertainment.

 

High end anything, whether it be cameras, audio or cars for that matter, has always been a tiny percentage of the wider mass market. Niches will vary but will always exist as the wealthy crave exclusivity.