M9 Colors at Night — Best Way to Shoot High ISO?

[baci]

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My testing confirms that the M9 has a 14-bit ADC, and substantial noise in the least-significant bits, for a dynamic range of just under 13 bits. So I can't see why you say is has a 22.5 bit dynamic range. A 22.5 bit DR is about six million to one.

 

Jim

 

 

I've been away and only just able to drop back in to the forum. Just to clarify to establish the bit depth of the M9 I did a search and one of the references that turned up was this: DxOMark - Leica M9 sensor performance

 

The figure of 22.5 bit is here - although I accept that it maybe a misappropriation of the term.

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[mjh]

The figure of 22.5 bit is here - although I accept that it maybe a misappropriation of the term.

That’s what DxO calls the ‘color depth’; it is not directly related to the bit depth.

[sblitz]

accepted that 640 is the break point. i still believe with a small meter in hand i can improve on the result rather than just setting f/stop speed at some arbitrary level. btw, hadn't seen the earlier post of work you did, much appreciated and yes i fully accept your methodology as correct. no need to reinvent the wheel.

[Guest malland]

Steve, well, now that you've seen the results I would urge you to try the technique rather than theorizing about it. Coming from film, it seems counter-intuitive, which is the reason I did not try it until a week ago, long after I read about it in some posts by "douglas3f". In my experience with, it helps to think that your essentially shooting with camera that does not have ISO but only a digital gain control that works best when set in-camera until 640 and best when set in post processing from 640 onwards. As for exposure, just try starting with f/2.8 and, say, 1/60 sec, with the idea that, in a dark scene, you're trying to get as much light on the sensor as you can.

 

Now, in post-processing, starting with the list of steps in post #101 above, there are many possibilities, including "selective pushing" (equivalent to dodging). In the picture below I have used the new L5 facility of the Radial Filter to push the face area by 4 stops (equivalent ISO of 10,240). You will note that I shot this at f/4.0; that was an error: I thought the lens was set to f/2.8, having forgotten that I had opened up one f-stop for a shot with brighter light some five minutes relier in my walk. I was sitting on the chair talking to the subject and took the shot after ten minutes of conversation, so not surprising that I forget about the f-stop: speaking to attractive young women can have that effect.

 

 

 

No. 24 | Summicron-28 | ISO 640 pushed 4 stops [on face] | f/4.0 | 1/60 sec

Hua Hin

 

 

—Mitch/Hua Hin

Surabaya-Johnny

[teeraash]

That is a nice picture, malland. I'll have to visit Hua Hin one of these days.

[Guest malland]

ขอบคุณมากครับ

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Surabaya-Johnny

[reddawn]

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This is one of the most interesting threads for me personally because I am a high iso junkie - I shoot the M9 at ISO 1600 (only because I don't like results above that) most of the time, even in daylight when I am out in the streets. Often I wanted a shutter speed of at least 1/250 to freeze motion and a aperture of f5.6 at least for fast zone focus work and have no hesitation increasing ISO to achieve my objectives.

 

I also do a lot of documentary projects which more often than not requires me to shoot in dark interiors which are not well lit. It took a while for me to acquire the M9 precisely because of stories of it's bad iso performance. Even after I eventually decided to get it, I made a mental note to use it only for street photography and that for other documentary work requiring high ISOs, I would pull out the Japanese cameras. (Because of that I settled for the smaller, cheaper 35mm Summarit f2.5 lens)

 

Well I love using the m9 so much that I am finding all almost all the time now, pushing the ISO to 1600, living with slower shutter speeds - anything to make the picture "work" - not sure why, but situations involving ISO 6400, f2 1/15s are not uncommon to me, esp in some of the dark churches I work in.

 

Mitch, if I read you correctly (and I did run a few tests when I first read what douglasf wrote), I can actually

 

1) set ISO to 160 and forget about it - letting more light on the sensor is purely achieved by aperture and shutter speed, and the M9 is essentially a one ISO camera

2) in bright day light, shoot with desired aperture and shutter speeds, watching the meter for overexposure

3) as light levels get lower, open up aperture or slowing shutter speeds depending on the subject, making sure the exposure is within 3 stops of the "correct" exposure, so that I can pull back in Lightroom.

4) in the lowest of light levels, set iso to 640 so that I can at least see some resemblance of a preview image on the LCD. simply shoot at f2.5 and 1/60 (to freeze subject motion) or maybe go down to 1/30 or 1/15 for more static shots or wide scenes where subject motion doesn't matter as much.

 

In Lightroom I can batch process a bunch of shots in daylight that needs to be pushed 2-3 stops from base ISO and I can individually tweak the iso 640 shots in super low light individually, with appropriate noise reduction to taste.

 

Thanks to all who have done e research into this topic!

[Guest malland]

David, I don't know what douglas3f says about this, but Jim Kasson's tests, do not show that the M9 is one-ISO camera: if you look at the referenced Jim Kasson article, his tests show that IQ improve by increasing the ISO in-camera up to ISO 640, and from that breakpoint on the resuls are better if you increase the Exposure in LR4/5, using the steps listed in post #101 above. I find the results are much better than trying to shoot at ISO 1250, 1600 and 2500 in-camera, and that there are major advantages as detailed in post #1.

 

Using the high-ISO technique that I've called "Shoot at ISO at M9 and Push in Post", I find that the M9 (with LR4/5) becomes a good camera for high-ISO (contrary to the conventional wisdom) — because of the excellent color rendition that is hard to beat.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Surabaya-Johnny

[rscheffler]

For shadow values it is a one-ISO camera:

 

ETTR — Just crank up the ISO? Part 13 | The Last Word

 

Quote by Jim in the comments section:

 

"If you look at the highlight SNR improvements up to ISO 640, you’ll see that you gain less than half a stop improvement by increasing the ISO setting over pushing in post. You don’t gain anything in the shadows, which is where the noise is most visible. So, if you’re happy with your current method [of shooting at ISO 160 and pushing in post], I don’t see a lot of need to change it."

 

So while Jim proved there is a measurable difference, in practical use, there may not be a significantly noticeable difference. But if you're shooting at night, then since the M9 is marginally better in mid and highlight values, then might as well shoot at ISO 640 to eek out from it as much as you can.

 

Where the ISO-less idea might have come from is looking at the DxO dynamic range numbers for the M9, which fall off pretty linearly at about a stop of dynamic range loss for each stop higher ISO.

 

Great thread Mitch!

[russell]

Ok, looks like we're zeroing in on a technique! After all these years...

 

Current settings for indoors or less well illuminated areas:

* Auto ISO up to 640

* Shutter speed = 1 / focal length (rounded up)

* Aperture = wide open

 

Then push in Lightroom.

 

 

What I like about this is that I control the shutter speed as I need something fast enough to negate my hand shake. Too often I've taken shots at slow shutter speeds when my auto ISO has maxed out ruining the shot.

[JimKasson]

I've done a series of test images that show highlight and shadow regions of images exposed identically (f/9.5 at 1/8 sec) at ISOs 2500, 1250, 640, 320, and 160. I used an M9 and the f/3.8 Elmar-M ASPH. The raw files were processed in Lightroom 5 with noise reduction turned off, with progressively more correction using the Exposure control for the lower-ISO images.

 

I've posted the results here:

 

Leica M9 progressive underexposure examples | The Last Word

 

I recommend that you download the Photoshop files that have a different ISO in each layer for comparison.

 

Jim

[JimKasson]

Ok, looks like we're zeroing in on a technique! After all these years...

 

Current settings for indoors or less well illuminated areas:

* Auto ISO up to 640

* Shutter speed = 1 / focal length (rounded up)

* Aperture = wide open

 

Then push in Lightroom.

 

I like the general idea, but I'd question your universal shutter speed and aperture setting rules.

 

I've never found it possible to get critically-sharp digital images with shutter speeds as slow as 1/focal length without something to brace against. Maybe I could in the film era, when a 35 mm camera brought a lot less resolution to the party, but not any more. And, if I'm using a lens shorter than 50 mm, and on the M9 I usually am (I'm hoping the M 240 will allow me to use longer lenses) much of the time subject motion trumps camera motion, and I'd need a faster shutter speed than 1/fl even with the camera on a tripod.

 

Another thing that digital has done is shine a glaring light on focus errors. The images are so crisp and crystalline that they are unforgiving of focus blur. I've heard some people say that you need to stop down one more stop than the DOF markings on Leica lenses. I'm in the camp that says that that's not enough; it take at least two more stops (balancing that with diffraction). All the above means wide open may not cut it.

 

Hey, if it were simple, then anybody could do it.

 

Jim

[douglasf13]

David, I don't know what douglas3f says about this, but Jim Kasson's tests, do not show that the M9 is one-ISO camera: if you look at the referenced Jim Kasson article, his tests show that IQ improve by increasing the ISO in-camera up to ISO 640, and from that breakpoint on the resuls are better if you increase the Exposure in LR4/5, using the steps listed in post #101 above. I find the results are much better than trying to shoot at ISO 1250, 1600 and 2500 in-camera, and that there are major advantages as detailed in post #1.

 

Using the high-ISO technique that I've called "Shoot at ISO at M9 and Push in Post", I find that the M9 (with LR4/5) becomes a good camera for high-ISO (contrary to the conventional wisdom) — because of the excellent color rendition that is hard to beat.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Surabaya-Johnny

 

I would agree that up to ISO 640 is the best route, although I often still just left the camera at ISO 160, since the difference didn't seem dramatic. I like to choose both my shutter speed and aperture, so pegging the ISO at 160 and pushing in post was effectively that same as being able to use M mode with autoISO...I just had to "change" the ISO in the raw converter. If I was only shooting in lowlight with the M9, I'd just change the ISO to 640 and start from there. My RX1 allows autoISO in M mode, which is really handy, but shooting the M9 in the method I'm describing is similar, except for the fact that the preview images may be dark on the LCD, and it requires adjusting the exposure for every shot.

[Guest malland]

Jim, I agree with you on aperture and shutter speed. In the very dark streets I've been shooting, with the 21 and 28mm lenses, I've been going for f/2.8 and f/4.0 and shutter speeds of 1/60 1/90, 1/125, 1/180 depending on the degree of subject motion (and whether I have time to change the shutter speed in street photography).

 

Also, I find that, in a very dark street setting with no street lights, but only fluorescent lights from shops and stands, the light fall-off it so rapid (like some of the shots in this thread), I can generally use the wider aperture, sometimes f/2.0 on the Summicron-28, because the light fall-off is so rapid, that the extra DOF is not needed — as long as I can focus quickly enough.

 

Shooting with a 50mm lens in much more difficult, not only because in a dynamic street photography situation it can be hard to get the focus right at wide apertures, but also because, on a dark night, all these fluorescent lights can create a halo (or "light-bleed") around the light that can be too visible and distracting — the 21 and 28mm lenses can also create this type of halo, but that halo is less obvious as it's smaller within the frame, if you know what I mean.

 

In addition, contrary to what russel writes in post #130, from ISO 160 to 640 I prefer setting the ISO manually than using Auto-ISO: when it's heavily overcast, I often liket o shoot at ISO 640 because I like the grain-line noise, even if I could shoot at ISO 320.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Surabaya-Johnny

[JimKasson]

My RX1 allows autoISO in M mode, which is really handy...

 

You stop getting any advantage in turning up the ISO on the RX1 at ISO 800 or ISO 1600.

 

ETTR — Just crank up the ISO? Part 14 | The Last Word

 

There's some digital gain going on that means that you want to avoid ISO 6400 and above, since you can add digital gain in post with more control than Sony can do it in the camera..

 

Low-signal histograms at various ISOs — Sony RX-1 | The Last Word

 

The RX1 is something special in low light, isn't it?

 

Jim

[douglasf13]

I would agree that up to ISO 640 is the best route, although I often still just left the camera at ISO 160, since the difference didn't seem dramatic. I like to choose both my shutter speed and aperture, so pegging the ISO at 160 and pushing in post was effectively that same as being able to use M mode with autoISO...I just had to "change" the ISO in the raw converter. If I was only shooting in lowlight with the M9, I'd just change the ISO to 640 and start from there. My RX1 allows autoISO in M mode, which is really handy, but shooting the M9 in the method I'm describing is similar, except for the fact that the preview images may be dark on the LCD, and it requires adjusting the exposure for every shot.

 

I should also mention that this assumes one is using Lightroom 4/5. This kind of thing can be very raw converter dependent, and I'm not sure how other converters behave with this technique. It's possible they're even better, especially in the shadow region, but I don't know.

[douglasf13]

You stop getting any advantage in turning up the ISO on the RX1 at ISO 800 or ISO 1600.

 

ETTR — Just crank up the ISO? Part 14 | The Last Word

 

There's some digital gain going on that means that you want to avoid ISO 6400 and above, since you can add digital gain in post with more control than Sony can do it in the camera..

 

Low-signal histograms at various ISOs — Sony RX-1 | The Last Word

 

The RX1 is something special in low light, isn't it?

 

Jim

 

I was thinking that ISO 1600 was about the cutoff with the RX1, but I hadn't really spent any time testing it. Thanks for the info. Yeah, the RX1 is outrageous in lowlight..and in good light, it isn't half bad, either.

[JimKasson]

I should also mention that this assumes one is using Lightroom 4/5. This kind of thing can be very raw converter dependent, and I'm not sure how other converters behave with this technique. It's possible they're even better, especially in the shadow region, but I don't know.

 

My original work looked at the raw files, and was therefore independent of the raw converter used. However, the original work assumed that raw files with lower SNR would, upon development in a raw converter chosen at random, result in converted files of lower SNR. This proposition, while seemingly reasonable, is not proven.

 

Jim

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[russell]

Mitch, does this work with the same results using RRP? I remember your older posts on the benefits of this raw processor.

http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/

[nggalai]

I should also mention that this assumes one is using Lightroom 4/5. This kind of thing can be very raw converter dependent, and I'm not sure how other converters behave with this technique. It's possible they're even better, especially in the shadow region, but I don't know.

 

I made a few tests with the new Release Candidate of Lightroom 5.2, and I must say it works a lot better in LR than in Capture One 7 for me, now.

 

Quick-and-dirty examples:

 

ISO 640 example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2968061/lr52rc.pdf

 

ISO 800 example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2968061/lr52rc_2.pdf

 

Both pushed by +4EV in Lightroom 5.2 RC, i.e. “virtual” ISO 10000 and ISO 12800, respectively.

 

The upper images are the “look” I was after when taking the exposure, I didn’t plan to push them in PP. I’m quite impressed how much Lightroom / the latest ACR release candidate can recover from the shadows. Very much so indeed.

 

Cheers,

-Sascha