Peter Branch Posted January 16, 2014 Share #681 Posted January 16, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica has certainly been playing its cards close to its chest on this one and the truth is we know very little. ... We do know that senior Leica managers have talked about a prototype 50mm f/2 Apo lens for at least the last 10 years. I was told repeatedly that although the lens had phenomenal performance it would never go into production because of the difficulty of maintaining the necessary precision at acceptable cost. I think that is a key point. Leica has no monopoly on the ability to produce such lenses - the issue is the cost of doing so. With such a lens absolutely everything has to be within specification and those specifications are at the limit of what is possible - that is the whole point of the lens; it is an example of the very best that can currently be achieved. To add to the problems Leica has launched the lens on a customer base with digital sensors that can far outperform any conventional film - the customers can see the faults and the image chain is sufficiently simple that the cause is beyond dispute. We also know that Leica are very sensitive about this subject. A few weeks ago I spent some time at Leica Mayfair on a course and became aware that the staff were in extreme defensive mode on this subject. One of the other course members asked about waiting time for a 50mm Apo and was told to expect at least 2 years. When I commented about the recall I was firmly told that there was no way I could possibly know anything about such matters. I referenced this Forum and suffered a blast of personal abuse and some very derogatory remarks about the Forum and the sort of people who participate. Not what I expected! Things have not gone well. It may also be relevant that E. Puts declined to comment publically on a pre-production sample and stated on his Blog that he would wait until he had access to a production lens. He is very well informed and as far as I know had never previously acted this way and certainly not actually made his approach public. I took this to be a warning at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Hi Peter Branch, Take a look here APO Summicron 50/2 ASPH: Central veiling flare / fogging. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted January 16, 2014 Share #682 Posted January 16, 2014 would you buy one secondhand? I wouldn't be put off if Leica made assurances that they would deal with the situation (lens swap or whatever) irrespective of warranty status (though I'm personally not especially interested in an expensive F2 50mm, however sharp it might be). It is all a bit embarrassing for Leica. The lens is clearly a flagship product and one that many will have bought for pride of ownership reasons rather than photographic need (I've read some post-purchase justificatory nonsense along the lines of the lens providing the most "neutral rendering":D). For so many (all?) examples to be flawed in such a basic fashion must be a knock to the pride of those closely involved in the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted January 16, 2014 Share #683 Posted January 16, 2014 I think it's more than a knock of pride. It's nothing short of a PR disaster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 19, 2014 Share #684 Posted January 19, 2014 The dealer in the US is about as well connected to Leica as any US dealer, including being better connected than Leica stores themselves. I have NEVER been told anything by them that did not turn out to be true. They brought it up since the two of us with the APO50 had just walked into the premises with the lenses attached to our M's. They showed us one that they had just received back from Leica Solms after "repair". Three, APO50 in one dealership at one time is rare theses days. That is how the subject got brought up and it was the dealer who initiated the conversation, not us. A day later I mentioned said conversation to a senior Leica marketing individual, face to face, and he had not heard this information. But then he said that often he could be one of the last to know since he was not directly involved with repair or warranty issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 19, 2014 Share #685 Posted January 19, 2014 Returning products with demonstrated weaknesses/problems are fairly common practice. Or should, at least, be so. Recall is likely not the most efficient way to make money, but loss of credibility/reputation can be quite expensive, as we all know. If Leica recalls the lens, let's hope that v2 is all what v1 has offered, minus loss of central contrast. In the mean time, I enjoy plying with my copy... Any guestimates of the number of copies of the APO-50 that has left Solms? 100, 200, 500,...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 19, 2014 Share #686 Posted January 19, 2014 Any guestimates of the number of copies of the APO-50 that has left Solms? 100, 200, 500,...? Guesstimates: 274. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 19, 2014 Share #687 Posted January 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) 274. 274 = tribonacci number, Smith number, nontotient, noncototient, centered triangular number, ... and APO-50 number. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 19, 2014 Share #688 Posted January 19, 2014 :D:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 19, 2014 Share #689 Posted January 19, 2014 I was told repeatedly that although the lens had phenomenal performance it would never go into production because of the difficulty of maintaining the necessary precision at acceptable cost. And at a small enough size , not just cost. I think Puts wrote about the combination of performance and limited size as the ultimate hurdle, and his amazement that it could be achieved. (Except maybe it couldn't….yet.) The price didn't seem to be as big of an issue, given the positioning as a "flagship." I agree, however, that given this characterization, it's been a flat out marketing and PR fiasco. And will put any future claims under incredible scrutiny. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted January 20, 2014 Share #690 Posted January 20, 2014 And at a small enough size , not just cost. I think Puts wrote about the combination of performance and limited size as the ultimate hurdle, and his amazement that it could be achieved. (Except maybe it couldn't….yet.) This is important. Computers can kick out perfect optical formulas all day, getting one materialized is the hard part. Maybe a mechanical limit has been reached, price limited or not, (and sensor pixel counts are going nowhere but up whether you want that or not). Or, Leica will discover a way to meet criteria by splitting an element or two and the problem is determining the cost of a proper recall. Done right Leica could avoid much damage to its credibility (e.g. the Tylenol poisonings, many years ago). In any case Herr Karbe will certainly earn his pay on this one. As for crushing the recalled lenses, can you imagine the price for those that escape and turn up on the collector's circuit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 20, 2014 Share #691 Posted January 20, 2014 I couldn't find the reference after re-reading Puts' review. Perhaps he made this statement about the Summilux, but the concept still holds, I would think. On the other hand, I did find this quote from Puts on the APO… "The ASCR50 on the other hand is not only flare-free, but does suppress the internal reflections and the veiling glare on small areas totally. " Oops. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 20, 2014 Share #692 Posted January 20, 2014 Maybe Puts was given lens #1 from Karbe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dewilde Posted January 20, 2014 Share #693 Posted January 20, 2014 Still don't have an answer to my question. Has anyone else that has had their lens repaired felt their new lens is overall less contrasty and less saturated? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2014 Share #694 Posted January 20, 2014 Maybe Puts was given lens #1 from Karbe. No, I expect that "lucky" recipient was a buddy of Dr Kaufmann though our correspondent whose idea of street photography is the inside of a Costco supermarket has been surprisingly quiet of late. Perhaps this loose cannon has gone off once too often, even for Dr Kaufmann. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2014 Share #695 Posted January 20, 2014 Still don't have an answer to my question. Has anyone else that has had their lens repaired felt their new lens is overall less contrasty and less saturated? My lens hasn't improved, if that is what you mean, and it still fails by a mile to justify its high cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2014 Share #696 Posted January 20, 2014 Any guestimates of the number of copies of the APO-50 that has left Solms? 100, 200, 500,...? Some say... less than 100. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 20, 2014 Share #697 Posted January 20, 2014 Who knows, I might even get another copy of 99 Self-Portaits to add to my growing collection... :D:DWant a few of mine? - they are all unopened in foil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
melantye Posted January 20, 2014 Share #698 Posted January 20, 2014 I just got back my 50 APO after a (wait for it......) 4 month wait. I was informed that Leica completely redid the entire optics. One thing I can tell easily is that the silver rings inside are now blackened. And yes the flare is controlled a lot better this time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 20, 2014 Share #699 Posted January 20, 2014 I just got back my 50 APO after a (wait for it......) 4 month wait. I was informed that Leica completely redid the entire optics. One thing I can tell easily is that the silver rings inside are now blackened. And yes the flare is controlled a lot better this time. Is there a chance you could post a simple photo of the inside of your recently returned lens for us to see? Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
melantye Posted January 21, 2014 Share #700 Posted January 21, 2014 Is there a chance you could post a simple photo of the inside of your recently returned lens for us to see? Thanks. Here it is. I don't have the photo before the lens got sent black, but I recall very shiny silver rings inside. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/208297-apo-summicron-502-asph-central-veiling-flare-fogging/?do=findComment&comment=2514572'>More sharing options...
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