With friends like this, who needs enemies?

[baretta]

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throwing up

 

Objective critism is good, otherwise Leica is dead in the water

Lots of people were expecting an interchangeable lens and didn't get it.

The X-Vario is a nice camera but, for the price, its not hitting many folk's hot spot

I suspect the target market is not camera enthusiasts, Ming Thein has a good grasp of the target market.

 

We just to face that and move on

 

What price are you looking for? Cheaper than X2? Or same price with dlux 6?

[Carduelis]

I cannot understand why people have to trash cameras such as the X Vario that does not seemingly live up to their requirements or seems overly expensive. I am a camera enthusiast who has many years experience of photography and it certainly appeals to me for reasons that I have mentioned. We all have different requirements depending on the various types of photography we pursue and you have to respect people's choices of equipment even if you wonder why they have bought it. It seems to me that people get too carried away with equipment and take it too personally and come up with rather insensitive remarks on occasions.

 

I often wonder why people would want to buy a large bulky expensive 50 mm f0.95 Noctilux lens for many thousands of pounds when I would much prefer a cheaper 50 mm Summicron or Summarit. I would never dream however of trashing the Noctilux as a result and would put it down to their good fortune of being able to afford one and perhaps their requirements of really being into low light photography and the effects of diminished depth of fields.

[luigi bertolotti]

if leica had advertised the product as a super x rather than a mini m the negative reaction would not have been so great. being mislead is, i believe, what has people's knickers in a twist,

 

Exactly my opinion... and the idea of speaking of "Mini M" came from them and no other, and i keep my opinion that it was a silly one, or (better, in case) a sort of joke for the forum members... ; no damage for sales, antway, which I hope for them will be satisfactory..

[Guest badbob]

Exactly my opinion... and the idea of speaking of "Mini M" came from them and no other, and i keep my opinion that it was a silly one, or (better, in case) a sort of joke for the forum members... ; no damage for sales, antway, which I hope for them will be satisfactory..

 

I didn't see "Mini-M" as a joke or silly thing at all. In fact, it got my attention which resulted in the purchase. I had an X1 but ultimately didn't like it. It was OK for some shooting, but the Nikon Coolpix A really stole the show from that camera, being so much smaller and handy. I always wanted an 'M' digital camera, in spite of the fact that I don't change lenses and there were no zoom lenses for the 'M' cameras, but the $12000 price (4 times the X Vario price) killed that idea. So all of a sudden I see what looks like an 'M' camera (and in person really felt like an 'M' - not like an 'X') for less than 1/4 the price of the 'M9' with lens, *and* it has a zoom lens too, *and* a large hires monitor - well, that just amazed me.

 

Every now and then (like right now) I take the XV out of the bag and look it over and marvel at what Leica did, for less than 1/4 the price of the M9 with lens.

[Fotograph]

 

Every now and then (like right now) I take the XV out of the bag and look it over and marvel at what Leica did, for less than 1/4 the price of the M9 with lens.

 

You should try to use it for making pictures soon, you will be surprised how good it works

 

I wish you a lot of fun with the X Vario - I am going to get it tomorrow too.

[NZDavid]

This is turning into yet another thread on the merits of the new X Vario.

 

Leica -- or for that matter any company -- should welcome a free and independent discussion about their products. I am sure they are mature enough to handle honest criticism. You may not agree with what some people say, but they should have a right to express their opinions.

[Guest badbob]

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This is turning into yet another thread on the merits of the new X Vario. Leica -- or for that matter any company -- should welcome a free and independent discussion about their products. I am sure they are mature enough to handle honest criticism. You may not agree with what some people say, but they should have a right to express their opinions.

 

Honest criticism is easy to dish out, and free. Investing millions of dollars in product designs that appeal to a small slice of the photo gear buying public is not a trivial matter, where the company can say "Oops, made a mistake, toss it and let's go on to the next item". If you look at the extreme views on the X Vario by persons known only by their login pseudonyms, and contrast those with Leica's obvious success in their expansion with new botique stores - something that hasn't existed before - who has the disconnect with reality? I don't think it's Leica. There's something terribly good and right and infectious about new products such as the X Vario, regardless of its 'expected' performance. If the X Vario were really a dog, I don't think you'd need experts to tell you that. Everyone (or nearly everyone) would know. So far, the experts may be mostly on the fence, and perhaps a few are genuinely disenchanted, but when serious users like Michael Reichmann's Luminous Landscape publish such a positive view as they did a couple days ago, I think there's something really good there for the right people who know what the X Vario can do in the right hands.

[NZDavid]

Yes, people can be intemperate with their criticisms, but that's the internet. Unthinking criticism tends to reveal more about the writer than the argument. Re Leica's "successful" boutique stores, well, that may be the case in a few upmarket areas in some cities; but we are unlikely to see any in this part of the world!

[iforum]

Showing the downside of a camera has its positives as well

[Guest badbob]

Showing the downside of a camera has its positives as well

 

I very much appreciate the strong critique, no holds barred. When I'm spending for a Leica, I expect more for my money. So yes, I agree. But "opinions" that have little or no factual content, whether the facts are proven or not, just create fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD), and alienate people. When I see so many of those no-content negative opinions posted with little or no rebuttal, I suspect that there's a hidden agenda there. But give me some facts, true or false, that can be looked up and researched etc. - now that's something useful that helps build a good community.

[Guest badbob]

Yes, people can be intemperate with their criticisms, but that's the internet. Unthinking criticism tends to reveal more about the writer than the argument.

 

We know that, but it's not an excuse, especially on a forum devoted to high-priced cameras.

 

Re Leica's "successful" boutique stores, well, that may be the case in a few upmarket areas in some cities; but we are unlikely to see any in this part of the world!

 

Things may change sooner than most of us realize. Where I am today in the SE U.S., I'm within about 300 miles of at least one such store, and within a day's driving distance to at least 2 more. I recall just a handful of years ago that there were very few Apple stores outside of a few large cities, and now they're everywhere. And it's not an unfair comparison, not completely anyway, since each Apple store uses about 70(!) iPads as information tablets for their various items of merchandise on display. And that's a very pricy layout.

 

I also think Leica has some surprises in store (no pun intended) for later. Hopefully their growth phase will last a long time so there's good financial support for maintaining quality, even when not absolutely necessary. If the growth stops, we may see a few things start to slip. But this is an exciting time for electronics in general, and a pretty strange and interesting time for Leica, who have been a relatively small niche operation until now.

 

I still remember 9/9/09 clearly, with 3 Leica cameras breaking ground in 3 product/market categories. One would have been impressive, but 3 was astounding (never mind the prices). The way things are going, I might even be able to afford another Leica camera within the next few years.

[luigi bertolotti]

I didn't see "Mini-M" as a joke or silly thing at all. In fact, it got my attention which resulted in the purchase....

 

Well... I'd better to specify that it was a silly (or joking) message for M users... a breed of people who got (irrationally ?) excited reading the term "mini M"... and started a happy and rich flow of speculations about... (I was in the band, no excuse...) you must consider that we are a (rather aged...) group of people that have a sort of love affair with M that endures by decades... we have freewheeled a lot, in recent years, about the concept of a "Digital CL" (CL was a camera that many of us own/owned and still has a flavor of its own in our hearts... the fact that is a camera dated 1973 does fit in the mood... )

I agree that for people that knows Leica through the X line this announcement has been warmly welcome, and the "mini M" message too has probably been finely adressed.

[CalArts 99]

But "opinions" that have little or no factual content, whether the facts are proven or not, just create fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD), and alienate people.

 

But this is how humans operate in the world. Opinions are what we use to navigate the world. They become our principals and beliefs. Look at all our institutions. They function through opinion despite the 'facts.' Humans don't see through an empirical lens even with all the 'facts' that may be in front of them. An empiricist may form an opinion based on 'facts' but those 'facts' can then become a human construct because we are opinionated beings. Yes, opinions can sometimes produce FUD or they can sometimes produce harmony and security. Our cultural tenets (think: religion and law) are based primarily on opinions of how we should function in the world.

 

Re: the Vario. The 'facts' are listed in Leica's spec sheet for the camera. People will make their own opinions about those specs. The images from that camera will be shown for people to peruse over. They will form their opinions. There will be no consensus and there will be forums filled with people voicing their radically differing opinions. Have you ever been to the House or Senate floor?

[Guest badbob]

But this is how humans operate in the world. Opinions are what we use to navigate the world. They become our principals and beliefs. Look at all our institutions. They function through opinion despite the 'facts.' Humans don't see through an empirical lens even with all the 'facts' that may be in front of them. An empiricist may form an opinion based on 'facts' but those 'facts' can then become a human construct because we are opinionated beings. Yes, opinions can sometimes produce FUD or they can sometimes produce harmony and security. Our cultural tenets (think: religion and law) are based primarily on opinions of how we should function in the world.

 

Re: the Vario. The 'facts' are listed in Leica's spec sheet for the camera. People will make their own opinions about those specs. The images from that camera will be shown for people to peruse over. They will form their opinions. There will be no consensus and there will be forums filled with people voicing their radically differing opinions. Have you ever been to the House or Senate floor?

 

Opinions which have no factual content don't become our principles or beliefs, because they contain nothing. Really. Beliefs and principles have to state something to believe in, whether true, false, fantasy or anything else. Nobody who lives in a functional society who intends to function in that society will say "I believe in disagreeing" and that's it. That's an "opinion" with no content. When someone says "I disagree", either stating why they disagree, or at least posting their "I disagree" to an unambiguous claim, they've stated a real opinion. But when they are merely argumentative (as in the courtroom sense) or negative without offering any clue as to specifics, they haven't stated a real opinion, they've only stated how they "feel", which almost never can be included in a collection of arguments, because it doesn't offer any information on the subject.

[IkarusJohn]

I cannot understand why people have to trash cameras such as the X Vario that does not seemingly live up to their requirements or seems overly expensive.

 

I don't really think that is valid (similarly the opening post).

 

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the XV for what it is, and I don't read the criticism that way at all. It's an X2 with a zoom. For what it is, apparently it takes very good pictures. Great.

 

That's not what people are complaining about.

[CalArts 99]

Opinions which have no factual content don't become our principles or beliefs, because they contain nothing. Really. Beliefs and principles have to state something to believe in, whether true, false, fantasy or anything else. Nobody who lives in a functional society who intends to function in that society will say "I believe in disagreeing" and that's it. That's an "opinion" with no content. When someone says "I disagree", either stating why they disagree, or at least posting their "I disagree" to an unambiguous claim, they've stated a real opinion. But when they are merely argumentative (as in the courtroom sense) or negative without offering any clue as to specifics, they haven't stated a real opinion, they've only stated how they "feel", which almost never can be included in a collection of arguments, because it doesn't offer any information on the subject.

 

I certainly agree that opinions aren't formed in a vacuum. But the definition of an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. A 'feeling' about something is also someone's opinion about something. Can't someone say, "I dislike this new flavor of ice cream" in public without anchoring it in some kind of context confirming it as a "real opinion" as you call it? What's so unusual about stating a view that one believes (i.e., their feeling about something) despite them not knowing exactly why they even believe it. It happens all the time. I once met someone who said, "I hate Latinos" but they won't tell me anything as to why. They simply said, "That's just how I feel, take it or leave it." Yes, of course that feeling comes from somewhere and so does the feeling that someone has when all they say is, "The X-Vario is only for arrogant snobs." But it's still their opinion, whether they define or not. Many people hold opinions for whatever reasons that they will not explain, cannot explain, nor do they even care to try to explain. It simply makes them comfortable in navigating a world of contradiction.

 

Anyway, this is going off on a tangent unrelated to a camera. People will have reactions to the X-Vario in a variety of ways; some of those reactions will be explicable and some won't. No big deal. If one likes it they can buy it. And they can also say, "I don't know why, but I just like it."

[Guest badbob]

I certainly agree that opinions aren't formed in a vacuum. But the definition of an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. A 'feeling' about something is also someone's opinion about something. Can't someone say, "I dislike this new flavor of ice cream" in public without anchoring it in some kind of context confirming it as a "real opinion" as you call it? What's so unusual about stating a view that one believes (i.e., their feeling about something) despite them not knowing exactly why they even believe it. It happens all the time. I once met someone who said, "I hate Latinos" but they won't tell me anything as to why. They simply said, "That's just how I feel, take it or leave it." Yes, of course that feeling comes from somewhere and so does the feeling that someone has when all they say is, "The X-Vario is only for arrogant snobs." But it's still their opinion, whether they define or not. Many people hold opinions for whatever reasons that they will not explain, cannot explain, nor do they even care to try to explain. It simply makes them comfortable in navigating a world of contradiction.

 

Anyway, this is going off on a tangent unrelated to a camera. People will have reactions to the X-Vario in a variety of ways; some of those reactions will be explicable and some won't. No big deal. If one likes it they can buy it. And they can also say, "I don't know why, but I just like it."

 

You're getting closer, but still no cigar. When you say a judgement formed about something that's pretty nebulous. And I think I was clear about 'facts' not needing to be true, merely that they state something that can be referenced. If a person says "I hate the X Vario" or "I hate Leica", you might permit that as opinion, but it still doesn't say anything. Not only doesn't it contain even the slightest bit of information, it actually sucks any existing goodwill out of the forum by being purely negative with no purpose other than to make the members feel bad.

[Guest badbob]

It's an X2 with a zoom.

 

I had an X1, which I think is very similar to the X2. If the XV were an X1 or X2 with zoom I wouldn't have touched it. The X1/X2 fits into those nifty little carrycases just like the D-Lux cameras - the 18709 for the X1/X2 and the 18727 for the D-Lux6. The XV is huge and requires a photographer's case or bag, which doesn't work in a lot of places. The D-Lux cameras and X1/X2 can also be carried in a photographer's case - the everready cases or whatever, but that not only bulks them up quite a bit it pretty much prohibits their being carried into certain venues. It's not a nitpick, it's a night and day difference.

[Ecaton]

.................They do not realise that built in EVFs = built in obsolescence. ..........

 

dunk

 

With that logic, all build in electronics are build in obsolescence, including sensors and lcd screens.....

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Ecaton]

Honest criticism is easy to dish out, and free. Investing millions of dollars in product designs that appeal to a small slice of the photo gear buying public is not a trivial matter, where the company can say "Oops, made a mistake, toss it and let's go on to the next item". If you look at the extreme views on the X Vario by persons known only by their login pseudonyms, and contrast those with Leica's obvious success in their expansion with new botique stores - something that hasn't existed before - who has the disconnect with reality? I don't think it's Leica. There's something terribly good and right and infectious about new products such as the X Vario, regardless of its 'expected' performance. If the X Vario were really a dog, I don't think you'd need experts to tell you that. Everyone (or nearly everyone) would know. So far, the experts may be mostly on the fence, and perhaps a few are genuinely disenchanted, but when serious users like Michael Reichmann's Luminous Landscape publish such a positive view as they did a couple days ago, I think there's something really good there for the right people who know what the X Vario can do in the right hands.

 

I walked into two camera stores last week which sell Leicas. Guess which make was readily available to be bought. No, not the M240 or MM, it was the brand new XV. The same can be seen when visiting web pages of Leica dealers. The writing is on the wall, it will be a dog, as are the V40 and X2 as far as success in the market place are concerned. And by the way its AF really sucks and the MF implementation is a challenge for the far sighted ones (get your reading glasses ready folks).