pieterpronk Posted June 23, 2013 Share #261 Posted June 23, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Make those lazy people work harder! So we can get our 7000 $ luxury toys faster! They should learn something from how it's done in Asia! We need 24/7 sweatshops where every father, mother and child works 15 hour shifts and gets fired the moment they can't keep up. All so I get my camera two weeks earlier! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 Hi pieterpronk, Take a look here Production Issues with M240?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
efreed2754 Posted June 23, 2013 Share #262 Posted June 23, 2013 Hi and writing from sunny Italy. Today Macerata Feltria, tomorrow Milan. On to the point. Believe bybrett got it right. Leica would refrain from disclosing exact cause of delay as it would tarnish their reputation. Hence believe everything they say although not complete. Theorize something like 1 in 6 sensors have a problem for example and given the manual nature of their process, a lot of time is required to test, retest and then assemble each body. That makes the delay longer than 15% a 1 in 6 suggests. It would be suicide to admit to any defects as their image is closer to perfection. This makes silence and obfuscation a better course than transparency. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krooj Posted June 23, 2013 Share #263 Posted June 23, 2013 With all this talk of low yields on the sensors, I'm wondering if Leica is being overly stringent in the QA process compared to other manufacturers, or if they have a genuine problem. If it really is a serious problem with the sensor, then my condolences; it's going to be very expensive for someone. Also, considering how there's large group of users out there that prefer the outright rendering of the M9/-E CCD, I wonder whether Leica is brewing up a CCD-based update to that camera. Perhaps the same 18MP sensor in an otherwise 240-level body sans live view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 23, 2013 Share #264 Posted June 23, 2013 I would think there is no chance at all of that. The interface specifications and power requirements of CCD are completely difference. It would be tantamount to developing a new camera. They can't just turn on the tap to keep the M-E running. Parts may well be on 24 week lead-times. Their M production eggs are in the Typ 240 basket. I don't think we'll ever know for sure... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 23, 2013 Share #265 Posted June 23, 2013 Also, considering how there's large group of users out there that prefer the outright rendering of the M9/-E CCD, I wonder whether Leica is brewing up a CCD-based update to that camera. Perhaps the same 18MP sensor in an otherwise 240-level body sans live view. Now that would be an extremely unlikely turn of events. As a rule, once the switch from CCD to CMOS has been made, there is no turning back. And there is no reason to; whenever there is something exciting happening in the image sensor industry, it is invariably based on CMOS technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted June 23, 2013 Share #266 Posted June 23, 2013 With all this talk of low yields on the sensors, I'm wondering if Leica is being overly stringent in the QA process compared to other manufacturers, or if they have a genuine problem. If it really is a serious problem with the sensor, then my condolences; it's going to be very expensive for someone. Also, considering how there's large group of users out there that prefer the outright rendering of the M9/-E CCD, I wonder whether Leica is brewing up a CCD-based update to that camera. Perhaps the same 18MP sensor in an otherwise 240-level body sans live view. I have M9 and M240. I don't think the rendering is significantly different. I did a custom profile in ACR that dials down saturation a bit and to my eye the files are excellent. (Not talking about jpgs out of the camera as I dont care about ooc jpgs). That's a sample of one. Is it statistically more reliable or unreliable than saying "there's a large group of users out there that prefer the outright rendering of the M9" without actually measuring? I think there are just as many who think the CCD-CMOS debate is a tempest in a teapot. In any event Leica has chosen a CMOS path now, and I don't see them making CCD variants. They can't fill their orders for M's so why would they do that? It is something to adjust to, like any new sensor, and that's all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share #267 Posted June 24, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yesterday I had the opportunity to examine, hold and shoot the new X Vario and while it definitely isn't a camera for me I can describe the build quality in a single word: WOW! Seeing the fit, finish and quality of this camera definitely reassures me that this is not some little p&s that Leica has farmed out to a third party. The lens focus and zoom rings feel like what you would expect from a Leica. In fact all the controls have a wonderful, solid feel that instantly bring to mind the M240. It may be an X3 on the spec sheet, but it certainly feels like a mini M. Seeing this camera makes me realize all the more that Leica are more than capable of building any camera in volume with existing resources. At the Leica Store in Hong Kong I enquired if I might be able to purchase 15 to 20 cameras as sales incentive prizes for my employees, and the answer was a very affirmative "Yes, we have that many in stock". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 24, 2013 Share #268 Posted June 24, 2013 Making the rash assumption the X Vario is made by Leica in Portugal, one explanation for Leica changing the habit of a lifetime and having product to sell on Day One is that their people who would otherwise have been making Ms - had it been possible - been deployed to build up a stockpile of X Varios instead. Maybe there is no production problem with the M; maybe the X Vario is simply seen as a higher priority. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 25, 2013 Share #269 Posted June 25, 2013 Making the rash assumption the X Vario is made by Leica in Portugal, one explanation for Leica changing the habit of a lifetime and having product to sell on Day One is that their people who would otherwise have been making Ms - had it been possible - been deployed to build up a stockpile of X Varios instead. Maybe there is no production problem with the M; maybe the X Vario is simply seen as a higher priority. Can be... maybe, looking at this forum, they have evaluated that X Vario is a camera that customer sees on the shelf and takes away, M is a camera for people who order without seeing, then complain in the forums while patiently waiting... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_dernie Posted June 25, 2013 Share #270 Posted June 25, 2013 You see production issues and I see a steady stream of cameras, just like the M8 and M9 release. Here in the UK the M deliveries are absolutely nothing like the M8 or M9, both of which I ordered relatively early and received in a timely fashion. AFAIK no normal Leica dealer has received -any- Ms yet, or that is what I have been told. Perhaps they have been available at the Leica boutique in Mayfair, which has given me good service doing 6-bit conversions on my lenses. I prefer to buy from the traditional dealers I have used in the past and hope they stay in business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted June 25, 2013 Share #271 Posted June 25, 2013 Everyone here is quick to blame the sensor as being the potential holdup, which, while likely, might not be the whole story. As most will remember, Leica had trouble delivering both the M9 and MM in a timely manner, and both of those were relatively minor modifications of the original m8 design (different shutter and sensor being the primary changes). With the m240 we have a complete internal redesign, meaning new parts for the LCD, led illumination for the frame lines, the evf data port, logic boards/cpu, new battery, And the sensor itself. Couple that with the tight tolerances needed for weather sealing and Leica has to retrain all of their staff on a completely new assembly pipeline - this is seemingly a huge undertaking for a such a small company compared to what they have done in the past. I imagine that the slow production is a combination of a dearth of critical parts, an under assumption of how many M240s the market could require (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they assumed the market would be a subset of m9 owners at launch but I can't help but feel their numbers have to be based on preorders!), and an overestimation of how many m240s they could assemble. The only upside I can see is that it probably can't get any worse going forward (I guess a critical component provider could go out of business). At least m240s are showing up on ebay at regular intervals now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted June 25, 2013 Share #272 Posted June 25, 2013 We have to remember that now Leica self produces more variants of camera compared to before. They now have the M-E , the MM, the M240, the X2, and comes the X-Vario.. When we were waiting for an m8.. It was just an M8 with other "rebranded" cameras. While M9 was released, M8 is completely discontinued and there was no MM, and just an additional X1. Also to keep in mind due to the popularity of the brand and the "wide acceptability" of range finders which made some people convert, adds up more demands. I for one am one of them. In the past I wouldnt even think of trying a digital rangefinder, now, Inwouldnt even touch a dSLR.. Alot of factors need to be considered and plus, they may have some production issues as well, such as the loose lugs, the sensors (they DID have sensor crack and coating issues back with M9 too).. Etc etc that adds up.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted June 26, 2013 Share #273 Posted June 26, 2013 .AFAIK no normal Leica dealer has received -any- Ms yet, or that is what I have been told. This is not so - I know several have been delivered. My 'small' dealer has had a black one, and is expecting a chrome one from the next UK batch in the next couple of weeks. I do not think the Mayfair store is getting more than other dealers. What is fact is that the larger UK dealers have many overseas (VAT free) orders on their lists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted June 26, 2013 Share #274 Posted June 26, 2013 Ditto. Clifton Cameras had 2 in the first week (I had one) and they are a 'normal' Leica dealer. If I was Leica, in a situation where demand far exceeded supply, I would prioritise my longstanding dealers with a good sales record, and spread the rest thinly amongst the remainder.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmclalla Posted July 2, 2013 Share #275 Posted July 2, 2013 Ditto. Clifton Cameras had 2 in the first week (I had one) and they are a 'normal' Leica dealer. If I was Leica, in a situation where demand far exceeded supply, I would prioritise my longstanding dealers with a good sales record, and spread the rest thinly amongst the remainder.... In Italy, at least, certain leica reseller in cities other than Rome or Milan, seem to have no shortage issue and are receiving Leica M240 on a weekly basis. I'll be receiving mine in a couple of days, one week after the order:). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted July 2, 2013 Author Share #276 Posted July 2, 2013 In Italy, at least, certain leica reseller in cities other than Rome or Milan, seem to have no shortage issue and are receiving Leica M240 on a weekly basis. I'll be receiving mine in a couple of days, one week after the order:). a·nom·a·ly (-nm-l) n. pl. a·nom·a·lies 1. Deviation or departure from the normal or common order, form, or rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted July 3, 2013 Share #277 Posted July 3, 2013 In Italy, at least, certain leica reseller in cities other than Rome or Milan, seem to have no shortage issue and are receiving Leica M240 on a weekly basis. I'll be receiving mine in a couple of days, one week after the order:). I believe it is more believable to have this discussion once you really have a new M in hand versus a dealers promise of one in a few days. I have had those kind of promises broken regularly anywhere in the world regarding Leica product. Please let us know when you ACTUALLY have your new M and give us your impressions of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmclalla Posted July 3, 2013 Share #278 Posted July 3, 2013 I will keep you posted for sure. The camera is now traveling to Rome and I may keep my hands on it in a couple of days. It's certainly an anomaly, but my intention was simply to underline that, apart from production issues, there may be some anomaly in the distribution process of the new Leica M. Yesterday I also received a call from a Leica reseller in Bologna informing that a branded new black M240 will be available by this week at his store. Another anomaly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share #279 Posted July 3, 2013 At normal list price, or more? I see Tin Cheung, one of the larger Hong Kong dealers (with Leica boutiques in their three stores) now require the purchase of a new Leica M lens from all M240 customers. What BS. Leica needs to slap these greedy dealers and distributors upside the head. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmclalla Posted July 3, 2013 Share #280 Posted July 3, 2013 Normal list price (euro 6200) and, as usual, no discount! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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