jlancasterd Posted June 24, 2006 Share #1 Posted June 24, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) The latest issue of David Kilpatrick's excellent magazine 'F2 Freelance+Digital' dropped through my letter box this morning. It contains a review of both the Panasonic L1 by Jonathan Eastland (his conclusions match those of most of the contributers to this forum - he is not impressed with the viewfinder...) and the Sony DSC-R1 'bridge' camera. The DSC-R1 is reviewed by David himself and he gives it a very good report. It has a 10.2 megapixel CMOS sensor twice the physical size of that in the L1 and is fitted with a non-interchangeable f2.8/4.8 Zeiss Vario-Sonnar giving the equivalent of 24-120mm in 35mm terms. David is particularly complimentary about the sensor's ability to retain highlight detail at maximum value without clipping. He is also quite comlimentary about the quality of images at ISO3200, but you need to read the article to get the full details (you will no doubt be able to log onto a web version at http://www.f2photo.co.uk in due course, but will need to subscribe) IMHO, with a recommended price in UK of £700 (US $1,280) - equating to a 'street' price of around £500 - this is going to pose serious competition for the L1 for anyone not needing interchangeable or very fast lenses. Especially as the viewfinder arrangements on the DSC-R1 appear to be much better thought out than those on the L1. John Dobson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 24, 2006 Posted June 24, 2006 Hi jlancasterd, Take a look here L1-killer?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stnami Posted June 24, 2006 Share #2 Posted June 24, 2006 There are not enough images around to see how the cameras compare. Once prints are made available and viewed then a comparative judgement can be made, net images have too many variables built in. It is all heresay at this point as we also presume the lens will be up there with the best in the DSLR market. Competition is expected with any product, if nobody bought the camera it would be a worry but panas are popular in Japan and sales there will ensure its future, not a problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugby Posted June 25, 2006 Share #3 Posted June 25, 2006 Just remember, it was not that long ago where we saw some Canon 1DS-MKII users with the full frame 16MP sensor using Leica R-glass openly admit (and produced samples of photographic proof) on the previous Leica forum and the fredmiranda forum that the smaller (in size and pixels) DMR 10MP pixel was better. I'm not saying this is the case of the DSC-R1 versus L1, ...yet. I will reserve my judgement until I've seen the sample images from both, and no doubt A-B comparisons by some re-known sensor 'hunters'. But for now, being anti-Sony from past poor experiences, I must admit the DSC-R1 as a product has a good looking set of specifications and it visually looks so much better than their newly announced Sonoltica (Sony-Minolta-Konica) DSLR. I have no doubt that the DSC-R1 will follow in the steps as the D2 as one of the all-time collectables Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecy Posted June 25, 2006 Share #4 Posted June 25, 2006 I think price will be the killer. there are too many other really good pro cameras, (e.g.DSLRS) out there for less money. T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grober Posted June 25, 2006 Share #5 Posted June 25, 2006 Just from reading about it, I like everything about the Panasonic L1 except the shutter delay. Too long... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 25, 2006 Share #6 Posted June 25, 2006 I own a Sony R-1. Got it as a 10Mpixel place-holder for the Digital M. Nice sensor. I got flamed (mildly) on the old forum for claiming it had rather exceptional dynamic range - so I'm glad to hear this reviewer found the same thing. The lens is extremely good stopped down a bit (hate to break the bad news, but the R-1 @ "24mm" and f/5.6 beat out a Leica 15mm @ f/5.6 on the DMR for rendering of fine details - and basically matched a 19mm Elmarit-ROM detail for detail over most of the frame). But it is quite slow at the long end (f/4.8) which negates a lot of its advantage as far as noise goes, and limits the ability to blur things creatively. It also is not as crisp at "120mm" - the DMR with a 90 APO chewed up the Sony pretty good, as did a 40-year-old Leicaflex 50mm f/2 @ f/2. The R-1 body is clunky compared to the L-1 - bigger, lumpier, and with less organization to the controls (as seen so far). The fixed lens is about the size of the L-1 kit zoom, but the L-1 will be able to take a no-doubt tiny 25 f/1.4, and perhaps some other fast Leica primes some day. And from using Leica glass on the Epson R-D1 and Digilux 2, I have no doubt the L-1 lenses of any type will be the best optics in the 4/3rds system. Even a 45mm ("90mm") f/2 "Leica" lens would likely walk away from the Sony at its longer focal lengths. I really like the shape of 35mm images compared to the 4:3 video format - so the Sony whips the L-1 or any 4/3rds camera in that regard (IMHO). But I'll sure be interested to watch the development of the Leica/Panasonic 4/3rds system from the sidelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted June 25, 2006 Share #7 Posted June 25, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been disappointed by what I have read of the L1 so far, seems to me a D200 offers rather more plus immediate access to a huge range of lenses. Panasonic are starting a long way back, though it will be interesting to see how the images look. It's been a long time coming, anyone know just how much involvement Leica have had in it? Meanwhile, Sony are making a lot of noise also about becoming market leader in digital SLRs by the end of 2008. I suppose it's possible but using a tired, under-developed product range inherited from Konica-Minolta would not be my ideal starting point. In the 60's the Omega watch brand used to boast "the last word in watches", playing on omega being the last letter of the Greek alphabet. I'm just waiting for Sony to come out with "Sony Alpha - first in DSLRs". You heard it here first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted June 25, 2006 Share #8 Posted June 25, 2006 One advantage BOTH the L-1 and R-1 have over almost any SLR is that they both allow one to bypass the "8-track tape" of digital photography - namely, CF cards. Inserting 50 pins into 50 holes (and sending the camera into the shop if you miss one) is the silliest technology in the digital world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted June 26, 2006 Share #9 Posted June 26, 2006 There will be no killer of L1. A monthly production rate of 3000 was reported by german online magazine http://www.photoscala.de. I think this number indicates that Panasonic exactly addresses those people who want the red dot or at least the name Leica on their lens and nothing else. Beside that, do you know what Olympus is coming up with at the end of the year. Successor of E1 is overdue. Maybe with slightly larger sensor due to noise issues. Regards, Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemeng Posted June 26, 2006 Share #10 Posted June 26, 2006 For those who love the Sony models - have you seen how large these things are? The flip-up LCD screen is on top of the camera body, making the "pentaprism" huge. Add the size of the (non-interchangeable) zoom lens, and you've got something at least twice the bulk of a Digilux 2 (or M6 + 50 'cron for that matter!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Hare Posted June 27, 2006 Share #11 Posted June 27, 2006 The L1 with 14-50mm will be $1999 or thereabouts. The Sony DSC-R1 is $800 at B&H (with rebate) Why are they being compared ? Different cameras/concept/sensors, different everything almost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimF Posted June 27, 2006 Share #12 Posted June 27, 2006 And from using Leica glass on the Epson R-D1 and Digilux 2, I have no doubt the L-1 lenses of any type will be the best optics in the 4/3rds system. Even a 45mm ("90mm") f/2 "Leica" lens would likely walk away from the Sony at its longer focal lengths. We shall see. Jonathan Eastland wasn't overly impressed with the detail he got with the (admittedly protoype) L-1 used for the piece in f2. Whether that's down to the chip and (unfinished?) software in the Pana, or the lens, or the combination of both we shall have to wait and see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flatfour Posted June 27, 2006 Share #13 Posted June 27, 2006 I had a look at the Sony the other day and just could not accept its shape or its viewfinder. It does have good lens and this is where Zeiss are going wrong by tying up with Sony. I have never found Sony Equipment well designed nor reliable. All three of my Sony Hi-Fi components have needed repairs within 18months and our large Sony TV only lasted 5 years. Zeiss should try and find a better camera manufacturer. Leica left Fuji I think for the same reason but I am not sure. Leica have retained considerabkle control over their digital products when made by others but Zeiss have not been able to do so. I didn't rate the Sony at first look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtharvie Posted June 27, 2006 Share #14 Posted June 27, 2006 The only concern I have with the L-1 is the sound it will make. I just love my silent LC-1. I tried an Oly 330 just to get a sense of the sound the L-1 will make and I found it rather loud. I realize the mirror system is the culprit and there is no way around it. The rest of the camera and lens combination seems like a good progression from the LC-1 and the proposed lenses seem to fill out a mid range system. I look at the 4/3 and Leica lenses to be similar to the CL systems of the last century. Cheers, JTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kobold Posted June 28, 2006 Share #15 Posted June 28, 2006 Just testing all the new functions in the forum. Looks like we all go back to zero, post-number wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnelson Posted June 28, 2006 Share #16 Posted June 28, 2006 That means we all get an even start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 30, 2006 Share #17 Posted June 30, 2006 I've been disappointed by what I have read of the L1 so far, seems to me a D200 offers rather more plus immediate access to a huge range of lenses. Panasonic are starting a long way back, though it will be interesting to see how the images look. It's been a long time coming, anyone know just how much involvement Leica have had in it? Meanwhile, Sony are making a lot of noise also about becoming market leader in digital SLRs by the end of 2008. I suppose it's possible but using a tired, under-developed product range inherited from Konica-Minolta would not be my ideal starting point. In the 60's the Omega watch brand used to boast "the last word in watches", playing on omega being the last letter of the Greek alphabet. I'm just waiting for Sony to come out with "Sony Alpha - first in DSLRs". You heard it here first. Sure the D200 is a great camera, I would say probably the best for that price available today and the Nikkors are exceptinal too. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertwang Posted June 30, 2006 Share #18 Posted June 30, 2006 Plus add those Zeiss ZF lenses for the Nikon and you got an unbeatable combo and in some ways better than the DMR??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted July 2, 2006 Share #19 Posted July 2, 2006 Plus add those Zeiss ZF lenses for the Nikon and you got an unbeatable combo and in some ways better than the DMR??? Hi Albert, If one is looking for the kind of detail and tonal rendering that is common in medium format film, then the D200 plus Zeiss files do not match those from the DMR. I've tested both cameras, however, and was very impressed with both. The R-1 I'll be testing should arrive next week. What interests me so much about the Sony is that it is an APS-C camera with a virtually silent shutter. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 2, 2006 Share #20 Posted July 2, 2006 Sean, how's your testing of the M8 going? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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