Leica M9 magenta colour

[LocalHero1953]

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Apologies if this should be in the post processing section, but my questions are as much about the M9 colour response as about post processing. They may also be relevant to the on-going discussion about the M colours.

 

I would like advice on how to deal with the problem described below. Please point me in the direction of any previous threads that give a solution - I have looked and found nothing that works so far.

 

I took this picture in February in a Paris cafe, with a Leica M9 (latest firmware), 35mm Summilux FLE, ISO800, 1/125s, aperture 1.7 (according to metadata, and so is approximate). It was probably set on Auto WB, but I am not sure. Obviously not a great photo, and I am surprised the focus is half right (I took it quickly). The raw photo was imported to LR 4.4 using the Adobe Standard profile, and given a Q&D Auto Exposure correction (it was about 1.5 stops under). All the versions shown here are synced to the same exposure settings. WB was set individually in LR from the white of the picture behind their heads. The resulting temp figure in LR suggests the cafe had tungsten or halogen lighting. I should add that I have a calibrated monitor.

 

I have uploaded four versions of the picture: for each one I changed the colour profile, and individually reset the WB. In order they should be: (a) Adobe Standard ( Embedded © My own single source tungsten profile (using CC Passport) (d) My own dual source profile, from bright sunlight and tungsten.

 

I hope the pictures uploaded here show what I see: grossly magenta'd lips in the Adobe Standard and Embedded versions, somewhat attenuated in my custom profiles. Neither of them were wearing lipstick:), and their actual lip colour is nowhere near as magenta/pink as any of the four versions. Even my custom profiles do not get it down to "true" levels, though I guess they are believable to a stranger, and the skin tones are reasonably accurate (the Embedded profile produces an unacceptably pink skin colour).

I don't think this is entirely a skin tone thing either - the guy's shirt was not as pink as shown in the Adobe Standard or Embedded versions.

 

I have spent a lot of time playing with these images, and have tried O1af's recipe to adjust RGB hue & saturations, but on these images it just produces anaemic skin tones, equally untrue.

 

Is this an IR issue - ie is the M9 more sensitive than other cameras to IR, and do parts of the skin with blood vessels close to the surface respond more than elsewhere, or reflect more?

Have I just encountered an extreme lighting source? (I shall have to make a return visit with a colour card). Though I have noticed similar but less extreme problems on other occasions.

 

Edit: I realise that white balancing from the picture on the wall is not the best technique, though it does produce reasonable skin tones with my custom profiles at least. I have tried subjectively adjusting the WB in LR without getting anything better.

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[jaapv]

The IR sensitivity of the M9 is about the same as the " best" 30% of cameras on the market, but is certainly not 0 (about 18%) It is about the best one can expect on a camera that is designed on the parameters of an RF camera - certainly not on the level of top DSLRs that can take a more hefty filter. Unfortunately this will cause some IR contamination in adverse conditions.

 

The simplest solution is to use an IR cut filter for photographs taken under high-IR light. Halogen or flash can be quite bad.

If you are caught out like here, one can correct but only with sophisticated Photoshop techniques like smart layers, developed for different colour balances and a layer mask, or in LAB.

Or, as you are doing here, just winging it and perhaps desaturating Magenta a bit to get an acceptable result.

[01af]

I have uploaded four versions of the picture: for each one I changed the colour profile, and individually reset the WB. In order they should be: (a) Adobe Standard ( Embedded © My own single source tungsten profile (using CCC Passport) (d) My own dual source profile, from bright sunlight and tungsten.

The fourth looks fairly good to me. Not perfect but acceptable.

 

 

Even my custom profiles do not get it down to "true" levels, though I guess they are believable to a stranger ...

Exactly.

 

 

... and have tried O1af's recipe to adjust RGB hue & saturations, but on these images it just produces anaemic skin tones, equally untrue.

Yes, my M9 colour recipe basically is intended for daylight and is, umm, less than perfect for tungsten light at high ISO settings.

 

 

Is this an IR issue—i. e. is the M9 more sensitive than other cameras to IR, and do parts of the skin with blood vessels close to the surface respond more than elsewhere, or reflect more?

Yes, the M9 is more sensitive to infrared than most digital cameras indeed, due to the relatively thin IR-cut filter over the sensor (thicker than the M8's but still thinner than most others'). So I always suspected that the issue with skin tones and lip colours under tungsten light is (partly or wholly) caused by the camera's IR sensitivity, as tungsten light is particularly rich in IR.

 

To eventually test this hypothesis, I recently acquired an UV/IR-cut filter ... but haven't yet come around to actually carry out the test

[LocalHero1953]

Thanks, both very helpful replies.

 

O1af, I hope you will post any results when you get them. It will save me investing in an IR filter on spec

[theno23]

Bit of a "band aid" fix, but the current version of Lightroom can do local WG corrections, so you can do the saturation / colour balance fix just on the lips.

 

I've never really had realistic colours out of my M9, but generally I find them pleasing, and mostly plausible.

[Jeff S]

UV/IR filters definitely improve results in some circumstances for the M9, and even for the new M, as shown here. Folks complain about filter use with the M8, but it's still the way to go at times, even with the later M versions.

 

I also like the flexibility in LR4 to use the adjustment brush (and grid tool) for local temp/tint/saturation tweaks.

 

Jeff