Paul J Posted March 5, 2013 Share #61 Posted March 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) What I mean that it is increasingly difficult to realize a significant gain when starting from a rather high level, and that there is a biological limit to the quality of the image we can see. I see your point and I agree. At 24MP there really is a limit and I think the M has milked every bit of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2013 Posted March 5, 2013 Hi Paul J, Take a look here M9 and M comparisons. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IWC Doppel Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share #62 Posted March 5, 2013 Camera's (excluding magnification ofcourse) have yet to match my eyesight Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted March 5, 2013 Share #63 Posted March 5, 2013 One of the great things about all M cameras is that when you're used to using them they sort of disappear in your hand and you can find yourself behaving as though YOU are taking photos spontaneously; as though there's no equipment involved. As long as a new camera doesn't diminish that experience and the results are difficult to distinguish from those of an M9, which I find beautiful, I shall be happy. I may buy a new M. I'm on the list because I like playing with cameras, it looks like a fun toy, but from a photographic point of view its not really a sensible thing to spend money on because the M9 is so good. There's little reason why the up-dating of a camera means anyone in their right mind needs to go out and buy it straight away unless they simply want to for the fun of it. Which is OK of course! But if it comes down to a quest for scientific comparisons of barely discernible differences, count me out: its beside the point of the camera and the point of photography in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycdpp Posted March 5, 2013 Share #64 Posted March 5, 2013 I think 'A' = M240 'B' = M9. 'A' looks flatter and less 'lifelike'.But I'd prefer a portrait in daylight to make a better judgement. I did guess correctly even before you posted the answer. M9 is a bit more yellowish, but switching from on to the other there's no doubt that, to my brain and eyes at least, M9 renders more detail. I own an M9-P so I'm probably unwittingly biased, but I can see the CMOS look on almost all the M 240 images that I've seen so far, and personally I prefer the Kodak sensor. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2013 Share #65 Posted March 5, 2013 I have one camera which far exceeds human vision, which while unfair to compare, makes the point that our eyes really do not need upgrading. That kind of detail is only really available in 40MP+ though. I was hoping that Leica would join Nikon and get on board with a high pixel offering. It really does open creative doors. Well said Peter. I am with you that I have no interest in scientific differences. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 5, 2013 Share #66 Posted March 5, 2013 Personally i was expecting/hoping for quite a bit more in resolution. Going from 18 to 24 megapixels implies a 13 percent gain in linear resolution. Theory predicts that such a gain would be visible, if barely so. Practice agrees. Now I wonder what you did expect, and why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2013 Share #67 Posted March 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was expecting/hoping that Leica would drop a 40± MP sensor. Why? Do I really need to answer that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 5, 2013 Share #68 Posted March 5, 2013 I was expecting/hoping that Leica would drop a 40± MP sensor. I for one did neither, but anyway: 6 months should have provided ample time to get over one’s disappointment, no? We all knew it would be 24 MP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted March 5, 2013 Share #69 Posted March 5, 2013 The only significance I can see in this quick test is: 1. Everyone who guessed could correctly identify which camera was which (so people who persist in saying there is not a CCD vs CMOS character in images must be wrong?) 2. Everyone expressing an opinion of the two images thus far prefers the M9 version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 5, 2013 Share #70 Posted March 5, 2013 I was expecting/hoping that Leica would drop a 40± MP sensor. Why? Do I really need to answer that? And how would you have felt about the increased noise which such a sensor would inevitably bring to the party? Leica's laws of physics are the same as anyone else's... I had my M for about 24 hours and I'm delighted. From a usability point of view, the M9 feels rather old and clunky, and that's before you fire the shutter. They are night and day different. Focussing my 4 rogue lenses - 2 Noctiluxes, 75mm Summilux and 90mm Summicron using Live View is giving me more accurate results than I have ever had using the rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2013 Share #71 Posted March 5, 2013 I for one did neither, but anyway: 6 months should have provided ample time to get over one’s disappointment, no? We all knew it would be 24 MP. My point, Michael, is that a generation has gone by and the IQ has not changed any more than slightly noticeable. However other cameras have managed to do so and at a much lower price point which is a shame for Leica since they had gained so much ground in terms of attention from a wider professional user base. As for my disappointment thanks for your concern. Though, no, it's still there since I have invested heavily in a premium brand that I have come to like and one that I expect great things from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share #72 Posted March 5, 2013 The only significance I can see in this quick test is: 1. Everyone who guessed could correctly identify which camera was which (so people who persist in saying there is not a CCD vs CMOS character in images must be wrong?) 2. Everyone expressing an opinion of the two images thus far prefers the M9 version. That is a fair point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted March 5, 2013 Share #73 Posted March 5, 2013 The only significance I can see in this quick test is: 1. Everyone who guessed could correctly identify which camera was which (so people who persist in saying there is not a CCD vs CMOS character in images must be wrong?) 2. Everyone expressing an opinion of the two images thus far prefers the M9 version. Wouldn't a more, or at least equally revealing test be to see which photo people prefer, asking only those who couldn't correctly identify which photo came from each camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2013 Share #74 Posted March 5, 2013 And how would you have felt about the increased noise which such a sensor would inevitably bring to the party? Leica's laws of physics are the same as anyone else's... I had my M for about 24 hours and I'm delighted. From a usability point of view, the M9 feels rather old and clunky, and that's before you fire the shutter. They are night and day different. Focussing my 4 rogue lenses - 2 Noctiluxes, 75mm Summilux and 90mm Summicron using Live View is giving me more accurate results than I have ever had using the rangefinder. Well I'm comfortable that my views expressed aren't particularly warming to a community that loves a certain brand and I'm also comfortable with expressing my views on that same brand that I love. I am also being cautious as I don't want to take anything away from those who have purchased. I have no doubt that the M is a better camera and refined in a way that makes it easier to use. That is good to hear. Though I'm talking about gains in IQ and gains that have already been made elsewhere. I'm glad to hear it's easier to focus. I'm lucky in the sense that I have not had real problems focussing with the optical finder but I still would imagine that making it easier is a gain for some. In terms of the laws of physics - while agree as someone who loves the brand that Leica is from another galaxy they are contending with the same laws of physics that other companies have seemed to get around. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macjonny1 Posted March 5, 2013 Share #75 Posted March 5, 2013 Well I'm comfortable that my views expressed aren't particularly warming to a community that loves a certain brand and I'm also comfortable with expressing my views on that same brand that I love. I am also being cautious as I don't want to take anything away from those who have purchased. I have no doubt that the M is a better camera and refined in a way that makes it easier to use. That is good to hear. Though I'm talking about gains in IQ and gains that have already been made elsewhere. I'm glad to hear it's easier to focus. I'm lucky in the sense that I have not had real problems focussing with the optical finder but I still would imagine that making it easier is a gain for some. In terms of the laws of physics - while agree as someone who loves the brand that Leica is from another galaxy they are contending with the same laws of physics that other companies have seemed to get around. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. Not sure what the other 40+MP camera you have that you are comparing too but I have a Nikon D800E that has a very nice sensor but I often prefer my M9 pics. I think most would find the 24MP range the sweet spot. I'd rather them keep it at this level and work on cleaner ISO up to 10,000 like the Monochrom in the future. I guess we are all looking at different "wants." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theno23 Posted March 5, 2013 Share #76 Posted March 5, 2013 Interesting, thanks Steve. I'm not in the market for a new M, and I'm certainly not in the market for knocking it. It looks like a fantastic camera; I think Leica have done a great job, and I wish them all the best. Looking at the two images, closely, and looking for differences, tells me nothing, I'm sorry to say. If I was looking at either in isolation, I'd be very happy. I might change the colour balance for both images. I know there will be experts who will say with lots of authority what the difference is, but to me, it's just the latest M camera - an improvement all round, I'm sure. But I remain happy with what I have (it's way more than I need). Happy shooting all you new M owners, and post some nice images, or even some video! Cheers John Yes, absolutely, at base ISO (the M9 was at ISO160, though I didn't say that) I have no preference either way - the M has more resolution, but not a lot extra, 15%?. It's the improvements in the ergonomics that are key for me - the liveview is great for wide shots, shutter is much better, and the ability to shoot at ISO1600+ without worrying about the latitude (if you can call that ergonomics), and the GPS grip (if I can live with the extra bulk) are the key things for me. I would say that the colour is more lifelike, the resolution is better (obviously), and you get better shadows, but there's not a lot to choose between them in image quality, at low ISO. - Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted March 5, 2013 Share #77 Posted March 5, 2013 My point, Michael, is that a generation has gone by and the IQ has not changed any more than slightly noticeable. Oh, but it has. And I am not convinced that a 40 MP sensor would, on the whole, have meant an improvement in image quality. There are trade-offs involved and I for one wouldn’t want to increase resolution to the detriment of other key factors. 24 MP is just fine (18 MP would have been fine, too). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theno23 Posted March 5, 2013 Share #78 Posted March 5, 2013 I did guess correctly even before you posted the answer. M9 is a bit more yellowish, but switching from on to the other there's no doubt that, to my brain and eyes at least, M9 renders more detail. I own an M9-P so I'm probably unwittingly biased, but I can see the CMOS look on almost all the M 240 images that I've seen so far, and personally I prefer the Kodak sensor. Tony The M definitely renders more detail, but I doubt you'd ever see that on web sized images, or on plausible sized prints. The M shot I posted was rotated (which softens detail a lot), and scaled down quite a bit, but pixel peeping the original DNG files you can see there's a bit more detail in the M shot - not a lot though. - Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theno23 Posted March 5, 2013 Share #79 Posted March 5, 2013 That is a fair point I don't think many people have expresses a preference. I don't have any preference - the M9 has a pretty noticeable yellowy colour cast in it's shots, so picking them out if you're used to that isn't too hard, and if it's what you're used to it will seem familiar. The M shot has more accurate colour (as in, closer to the real scene), but the M9 shot doesn't look unpleasant, just not lifelike. I could try comparing to shots taken with other cameras w/ 50mm lenses, but life is too short! - Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theno23 Posted March 5, 2013 Share #80 Posted March 5, 2013 I was expecting/hoping that Leica would drop a 40± MP sensor. Why? Do I really need to answer that? I didn't - I don't have much use for the extra resolution, and it would slow the camera, and post processing down a lot. I travel with the smallest MacBook Air I can get, and do a lot of editing on that. It can still do M DNGs, but 40MP would be too big. I'd rather sacrifice some detail for speed, but obviously others have different needs - if you mostly do studio shooting the extra slowness wouldn't be an issue, and the resolution would be useful. - Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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