Lindolfi Posted February 20, 2013 Share #41 Posted February 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Bert, That's why I'm so eager to get a M240. The cropping factor in M8 prevent me from seeing image in the outter field or edge to get a "Bokeh". Don't expect too much. Remember, I'm only an enthusiast amature who just love beautiful stuffs. Thomas Chen All your other camera's don't have a cropping factor and must be bought quite some time ago. If you just bought them to have "beautiful stuffs", do tests with them and not to create a body of photographic work, we have only a partial overlap in interest, namely in class 2] of the list below of motivations to own a camera 1] a camera and lenses are beautiful objects and I like to display them in a cabinet 2] a camera and lenses have technical properties, wich I like to investigate 3] a camera and lenses are tools to create photographic work as an expression of how I see and experience the world around me For me, the emphasis is on 3] and to reach it, I spend time in 2] (and to be honest, I love the science of optics). Motive 1] is completely outside my scope. Thanks Thomas, even if you do not show your images, the picture has developed for me. If there would be a way to communicate well in 2] we could take steps forward, but the strands of thought diverge like the shape of a broccoli. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 Hi Lindolfi, Take a look here Managing Viewing the Best from M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 20, 2013 Share #42 Posted February 20, 2013 Bert, That's why I'm so eager to get a M240. The cropping factor in M8 prevent me from seeing image in the outter field or edge to get a "Bokeh". .... Thanks and Regards, Thomas Chen Dear Thomas, I'm sad to see that you don't like your M8 files... I use my Leica M8u for professional and personal work, my editor and the graphical designers working with my files love them, just like they love the files from my Nikon D3 But only when I get it right... My advice to you: Stop worrying about what nobody knows about, the new M is not a finished product, only pre-production cameras are around. Start shooting RAW DNG files with your M8, the quality from the new M will be similar at ISO 160, just with a larger file and at higher ISO you will just smile more when shooting the new M. IMHO the only rute to sucess here for you is to learn how to post process the RAW DNG files from reading and looking at how other people do their post processing, especially those people that produce good images the way you like them. Often to get a good look of a digital file you can introduce grain this can give an effect you might be looking for, please look into this! Learn how to produce a JPG RGBs file for computer presentation and a TIF RGB file for printing. Find a printing lab with a good work flow, for instance one that does "Lambda" prints. What you will learn from this is: Not all of the lovely Leica M lenses perform equally good on a digital sensor... I have owned many of the lenses on your list and sold them since I didn't like them them on the M8... Some of them perform much better than others and for different purposes, they are different tools. You will with time be able to pick the right tool for a given subject if you practice practice practice... PS something that has not been mentioned; Are your lenses 6-bit coded and do you use UV/IR filters? If not, that could explain some of your difficulties... 6 bit Coding and UV/IR is mandatory on the M8 for any serious work except for: Night shooting, against the light and B&W where they may be omitted... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #43 Posted February 20, 2013 All your other camera's don't have a cropping factor and must be bought quite some time ago. If you just bought them to have "beautiful stuffs", do tests with them and not to create a body of photographic work, we have only a partial overlap in interest, namely in class 2] of the list below of motivations to own a camera 1] a camera and lenses are beautiful objects and I like to display them in a cabinet 2] a camera and lenses have technical properties, wich I like to investigate 3] a camera and lenses are tools to create photographic work as an expression of how I see and experience the world around me For me, the emphasis is on 3] and to reach it, I spend time in 2] (and to be honest, I love the science of optics). Motive 1] is completely outside my scope. Thanks Thomas, even if you do not show your images, the picture has developed for me. If there would be a way to communicate well in 2] we could take steps forward, but the strands of thought diverge like the shape of a broccoli. Bert, You are right but not all right. I've been very busy during the past few years after relocating from industry to school: lecture, research, journal paper publication. Thus, most pictures werw done by D-Lux for its convenience. Now I can ease up to return to my old favorite, however, need updated information of many sorts to catch up. I never did developed the film into print since 2009, thus don't know the technological advancement in this field. May I ask a technical question? For print a TIFF 16 bit print, is there really a 16-bit color depth output for ink injecting, or just because postprocessing program just offered TIFF 8 and TIFF 16 format, nothing in-between? We can do 2] and 3] after I get the M240, for 1] its my own interesting for collection, nothing to do with our dialogue in the photography. As you are an expert in photography, talking with you promotes myself a lot in this area. Thanks and Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 20, 2013 Share #44 Posted February 20, 2013 Bert, May I ask a technical question? For print a TIFF 16 bit print, is there really a 16-bit color depth output for ink injecting, or just because postprocessing program just offered TIFF 8 and TIFF 16 format, nothing in-between? Thomas Chen The Durst Lambda (also suggested by Erik Gunst Lund in this thread) has 64 bit color depth and 400 dpi resolution and accepts 16 bit TIFF files (click) You can print on archive paper (100 years non fading). My experience for exhibitions is that you can get stunning results. Bit depth however, is just one of many factors. My advice: do not focus too much on 1 or 2 aspects of which you think they are critical. Try to see the whole picture from the world you live in to the final print and decide what to work on. Most likely it is your artistic eye, your photographic and post-processing skills and not some technical detail in the process. As some members of this forum have pointed out: If you think photographic heaven will open by buying the latest and most expensive model of some brand, you are wrong. With the "stuff" you have already now, you can create amazing images. Photographers have done that for over a century... This is also where the comparison with sound equipment breaks down: there is no creative and productive step in listening to a beautiful recording, but there is one in creating an image and it is the most important one of the whole photographic process: when do you lift your camera, when do you press the shutter, what is the lighting, what do you feel and will what you feel be visible inside the frame-lines. Good luck, and I'm still interested in your work, also when it comes from your D-Lux, it does not have to come from a M 240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #45 Posted February 20, 2013 I have owned many of the lenses on your list and sold them since I didn't like them them on the M8.. Dear Erik, Thank you very much for coming and your advices. In fact I'm learning ACR through an excellent book Bert recommended. I have no any experience to edit well an image before. I had bad experience with M8. It has been sent back to Leica Service two times before I could take 20 frames of shoot. I don't trust M8 because its file no matter JPEG or DNG looks much worse than JPEG and RAW from D-Lux 4,and 5, that I've reported to Bert. Based on what I saw on screen (I never made a print for images taken by digital camera), I am confident to play the role of the little boy in Anderson's story "Emperor's new clothes". Here I agree to disagree as few people challenges Leica in this regard. I just wonder why it happens from the perspective of a consumer-type customer taking cost/performance and value engineering into account. Because I'm just an amature enthusiast having no sufficient knowledge to figure out why and I don't know much about editing. l would sooner kept silent and left M8 on the shelf. I use M8 for no more than 200 exposures. But I shot with D-Lux 5 in North Europe including Coppenhagen for more than 1000 exposures last Spetember and around 500 at Angkor Wat, Cambodia last month. That's the reason why I concern so much about M240's image quality in either DNG or JPEG, given it is really an innovative product in other aspects. I hope M240 can give me the sastisfaction that I had with M6 (Of course, M240 is definitely much better than M6 in functionality). About your act of selling some lenses out, I guess this is the cropping factor (1.33) of M8 that affects your lenses' performance or they doesn't fit your work. For example, not much "Bokeh" is visible. For me as an amature, I may have more lattitude. To explore in a fair play the true performance of M240 and fulfill my own goal in pusue of the near perfection, I've set up a high-defintion environment for 10 bits/channel color rendering on the screen. However, I need many advices from experts and experienced user or even Leica users who are interested. Welcome to join the forum. I welcome any comments no matter pros or con, however, just on the topic not on the person. Thanks a lot. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #46 Posted February 20, 2013 Try to see the whole picture from the world you live in to the final print and decide what to work on. Most likely it is your artistic eye, your photographic and post-processing skills and not some technical detail in the process. .. but there is one in creating an image and it is the most important one of the whole photographic process: when do you lift your camera, when do you press the shutter, what is the lighting, what do you feel and will what you feel be visible inside the frame-lines. Bert, Agree, thanks a lot for your advices. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 20, 2013 Share #47 Posted February 20, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear Erik,... About your act of selling some lenses out, I guess this is the cropping factor (1.33) of M8 that affects your lenses' performance or they doesn't fit your work. For example, not much "Bokeh" is visible. ..... Thomas Chen Dear Thomas, Crop factor has nothing to do at all with image quality or Bokeh, The M8 has plenty of both image quality and Bokeh. I don't understand how you can say it has no Bokeh... just shoot your lenses wide open and with the fore ground/subject up close, and your images will be full of great Bokeh. But again only with those lenses that have great bokeh! As i stated re selling lenses, bad Bokeh, lack of flat field, distortion, focus shift and flare are some of my not so good experiences with Leica M... Also please answer my questions from my previous post above. Are your lenses 6-bit coded? Do you use a UV/IR filter on your lenses when shooting with your M8 and have you turned on the appropriate settings for this in your M8? Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #48 Posted February 20, 2013 Dear Thomas, I don't understand how you can say it has no Bokeh... As i stated re selling lenses, bad Bokeh, lack of flat field, distortion, focus shift and flare are some of my not so good experiences with Leica M... Are your lenses 6-bit coded? Do you use a UV/IR filter on your lenses when shooting with your M8 and have you turned on the appropriate settings for this in your M8? Dear Eric, Maybe I didn't make statement precise enough. For the same lense, if put on a full frame M camera, the outside field of the image will be visibe compared to the cropped image in M8 where only the area around center part appears. I refer this to "bad or no Bokeh", could be inappropriate. Focus shift is also a problem in short distance shooting and aperture wide open, e.g. 90/2 APO ASPH. Therefore, I always shoot by wide angle lenses on M8 at a distance. I guess M9 has the same problem. But with focus zoom and focus-peaking function in M240, I suppose that it will be no any problem for Bokeh and focus shift. Then, my M, R lenses will revive. I do have a 6 bit code on M16-18-21 and two UV/IR filters from Leica. But I shoot this lense on M6 due to my bad impression toward M8. Therefore, the reason why I cannot answer you. Pardon ! All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #49 Posted February 20, 2013 thread has 64 bit color depth and 400 dpi resolution and accepts 16 bit TIFF files (click) . Bert, Thank you for your information. The specification of Lamda machine is as follows: " Colors: 16.7 million possible colors Color Depth: 36 bits Addressable Levels: 256 levels each RGB Resolutions: Dual autoswitchable resolution of 200 and 400 continuous tone pixels per inch with on-the-fly pixel interpolation " Even such a specification is good enough. Now I realize why in the world of professional photography people don't worry about the rendering of final output, beacause post-processing capability and the infrastrure already in place enables a superb print. Amateur who browses the image on the screen could not be that lucky. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 20, 2013 Share #50 Posted February 20, 2013 Dear Eric, Maybe I didn't make statement precise enough. For the same lense, if put on a full frame M camera, the outside field of the image will be visibe compared to the cropped image in M8 where only the area around center part appears. I refer this to "bad or no Bokeh", could be inappropriate. Focus shift is also a problem in short distance shooting and aperture wide open, e.g. 90/2 APO ASPH. Therefore, I always shoot by wide angle lenses on M8 at a distance. I guess M9 has the same problem. But with focus zoom and focus-peaking function in M240, I suppose that it will be no any problem for Bokeh and focus shift. Then, my M, R lenses will revive. I do have a 6 bit code on M16-18-21 and two UV/IR filters from Leica. But I shoot this lense on M6 due to my bad impression toward M8. Therefore, the reason why I cannot answer you. Pardon ! All the best, Thomas Chen None of these four statements makes any sense at all to me... Sorry I give up... Your reference to 'The emperors new clothes' by my countryman H. C. Andersen is indeed appropriate but for you own contributions to the subjects in the threads here on the forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 20, 2013 Share #51 Posted February 20, 2013 Thomas, the dialogues you entertain have all the signs of not getting anywhere. You keep repeating a short list of statements, surrounded by a lot of faulty arguments. The help we offer, is ignored unless it has to do with your short list. So I join Erik and also give up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share #52 Posted February 21, 2013 None of these four statements makes any sense at all to me... Sorry I give up... Your reference to 'The emperors new clothes' by my countryman H. C. Andersen is indeed appropriate but for you own contributions to the subjects in the threads here on the forum... Erik, I'm sorry that if I made something wrong. Because you just join this thread and have no idea why I concern M240 IQ that much, I try to explain the background. To make our communication better, in the next post I will use a MTF graph for a particular lense to explain "Bokeh" in M8 from my viewpoint. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share #53 Posted February 21, 2013 Thomas, the dialogues you entertain have all the signs of not getting anywhere. You keep repeating a short list of statements, surrounded by a lot of faulty arguments. The help we offer, is ignored unless it has to do with your short list. So I join Erik and also give up. Bert, You don't have to be in line with Erik because he is just new to this thread, thus, I have to let him understand the background why I say so about M240. However, as for us, you understand my stance quite well why I concern M240. Via e-mail I will send you some of my works by D-Lux and other tool. Then you will better undersatand that I did a lot of shooting and why I wonder as an amateur. I still not yet get the reasonable explanation what puzzles me. Because you have been in the LUF long enough, you know everything here. And I just make presence in this two weeks, still in the stage of "learning curve". It takes time and experience to know what is appropriate in the forum, as I suppose that everthing over Leica products can be discussed and find an answer and advice from experts. Please don't do anything just out of my post, let's focus on something about photography. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share #54 Posted February 21, 2013 None of these four statements makes any sense at all to me... Sorry I give up... Your reference to 'The emperors new clothes' by my countryman H. C. Andersen is indeed appropriate but for you own contributions to the subjects in the threads here on the forum... Erick, My training in the schools and jobs told me that “Only when one understands the basic scientific underpinnings behind a product one can makes the best of it”. That is the ground I take the MTF Graph for Leica lense R 28mm f/2.8 at aperture stop 2.8 (see attachment, you can get a clear one from Leica archive ) to explain the “Bokeh” issue in M8. My statement also applies to someother particular Leica lenses. I guess you might have known it as well. The typical “Leica-style Bokeh”, not just only “Bokeh” is manifested in the form of “its well-known smoothness of the unsharpness gradient.”(Quoted from Erwin Putts). The steep dip of 5 lp/mm and smoother dip of 10 lp/mm for both tangential and sagittal lines starting from image height of 5mm, reaching image height of 12mm suggest a smooth transition from the sharpness to unsharpness across the height of a full frame image: 24mm. The wide separation of tangential and sagittal lines for both 10 lp/mm and 5 lp/mm starting from image height of 8mm indicates a blurry reproduction of motif details in the field. This is the attribution of “Leica-style Bokeh” that is famous around the world in the 20th century. If one puts this lense (assume it is with M mount) to M8, the cropping factor of 1.33 makes image created just like what can be seen from M6 image with image height of 9mm (12 / 1.33 = 9 ). The smooth unsharpness gradient between the circle of 12 mm diameter and the circle of 9mm diameter will dissapear in the image associated with M8, making “Bokeh’ not so “Leica-stype” that people are familiar ieth . This is what I referred as “No Bokeh” or “Bad Bokeh” in the post with salutation to you. Is M8 to blame? No! The debut of M8 in 2006 was a great sensation in the world. I don’t like M8 doesn’t mean I don’t love Leica, just because it failed to offer me the same level of satisfaction that I can get from M6. This is also why I hope so much from M240. For modern Leica lenses (including those with floating element) in the 21 century, thanks to Leica optics enginners, they are so well corrected that only fast transition from sharpness to unsharpness come into existence, however, providing a sharp image with full open aperture as well as a different style of “Bokeh”. Therefore, it will be interesting to compare the behaviors of these three lenses: Summilux 35/1.4 (pre-ASPH) for “Leica Glow” Summilux 35/1.4 ASPH for “Leica-style Bokeh” Summilux 35/1.4 ASPH (with floating element) for the performance at full open aperture. You may prefer the latter for it helps you out in your job. I may prefer the others for entertainment as an amateur. If my explanation satisfies no you in any regards, please tell me so that I can make continuous improvement. Don’t give up anything. In the tough world nowadays, “Trust, Hope, and Love” are the pillars that bolster up our progress in photography or other things. All the best, Thomas Chen . Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/198348-managing-viewing-the-best-from-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2248984'>More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 21, 2013 Share #55 Posted February 21, 2013 Thomas, 1] when Erwin wites about "unsharpness gradient" he does not write about bokeh here 2] "gradient" is the change of something along an axis 3] Erwin means the change of modulation (contrast) as a function of the distance to the center of the image at a certain spatial frequency (detail in the image) 4] a Modulation Transfer Function (like you show in your posted image) is the modulation of the image as a function of distance to the center inside the focal plane (!) 5] "bokeh" is the quality of the image outside the focal plane (!) 6] Conclusion: bokeh has nothing to do with the information you posted and the size of the sensor of the M8 This is an example of a faulty argument I referred to in my former posting. (And then I don't mention the fact that you again have zoomed in on a tiny detail of the process of photography without looking at the true reasons you can not create your ideal images) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 21, 2013 Share #56 Posted February 21, 2013 Just to make one thing clear; I have read all of your posts in all of the threads on this site, before my first post, that was why I tried to help you, I was not new to your ramblings... Certainly Bert is not a new kid on the block and not wrong in any of his statements IMHO! Enjoy your quest, what ever it is... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Gunst Lund Posted February 21, 2013 Share #57 Posted February 21, 2013 Thomas, 1] when Erwin wites about "unsharpness gradient" he does not write about bokeh here 2] "gradient" is the change of something along an axis 3] Erwin means the change of modulation (contrast) as a function of the distance to the center of the image at a certain spatial frequency (detail in the image) 4] a Modulation Transfer Function (like you show in your posted image) is the modulation of the image as a function of distance to the center inside the focal plane (!) 5] "bokeh" is the quality of the image outside the focal plane (!) 6] Conclusion: bokeh has nothing to do with the information you posted and the size of the sensor of the M8 This is an example of a faultly argument I referred to in my former posting. (And then I don't mention the fact that you again have zoomed in on a tiny detail of the process of photography without looking at the true reasons you can not create your ideal images) Thanks Bert, for taking the time to put things right! Appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
4X5B&W Posted February 21, 2013 Share #58 Posted February 21, 2013 I love my six year old M8, it continues to surprise me with the quality of it's files. I am also on the short list for the M240, however it needs to prove to me that there is a considerable improvement in IQ (over my M8) before I make that purchase. A considerable improvement over M8 files would be stunning IMHO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share #59 Posted February 22, 2013 (And then I don't mention the fact that you again have zoomed in on a tiny detail of the process of photography without looking at the true reasons you can not create your ideal images) Bert, Thank you a lot. That's way I like to talk with you. I respect you as I learned a lot from you in the past two weeks more than in the past few years. I'm selecting some representative images (around 30 pcs.) that I shot in various places, with different cameras (most Lecia, and the other) across time span from my archive containing thousands of digital image, including few scene shot by both D-Lux and M8. All of them are JPEG straight from camera (except the scanned ones). I don't edit the metadata. They are works from an amateur consumer Leica user, may not be what to be expected from the perspective of professional photographer. However, they may allow you to better understand me. I will appreciate your comments. When I entered the Wetransfer.com site, I found that it is for “transfer small file from A to B” and also requests me to allow it to set up cookies in my computer. Thus, I prefer to send them by batches via e-mail (around 10M each). I try to make a good arrangement in each mail to make some kinds of association. However, the task takes times. I tell you one thing, I do like broccoli. I eat a lot of them every week. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share #60 Posted February 22, 2013 Just to make one thing clear; I have read all of your posts in all of the threads on this site, before my first post, that was why I tried to help you, I was not new to your ramblings... Certainly Bert is not a new kid on the block and not wrong in any of his statements IMHO! Enjoy your quest, what ever it is... Eric, Thank you for the comments. First thing, let me make a correction. 9mm and 12mm in "diameter" is wrong, It should be "radius". OK, let's talk with something about image. I'm going to send Bert batches of image via e-mail. I will appreciate your comments too. May I have your e-mail address for delivery? Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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