Thomas Chen Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share #21 Posted February 18, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) larger collection of optics usable etc. Yes, I've already acquired a couple of B&W Kassemann MRC polarizing and ND filters (46, 55, 60, 67 mm) from B&H. Get ready to use my M lenses on M240. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 18, 2013 Posted February 18, 2013 Hi Thomas Chen, Take a look here Managing Viewing the Best from M240. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Thomas Chen Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share #22 Posted February 18, 2013 Thomas, unfortunately the book is in Bangkok and I am currently in Paris and probably won't be back in Thailand for as long two months. —Mitch/Bangkok Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project] Mitch, I know you are a top-notch photographer who also understands and contains cultures in different parts of world. I've some questions about photography that puzzle me so much, however, it is not appropraite to discuss in the forum. May I have your e-mail address via "private message" in this forum, so that I can seek you advice in e-mail. Thanks and Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted February 18, 2013 Share #23 Posted February 18, 2013 Thomas, to send a private message to anyone on this forum all you have to do is to click the person's name in a thread and you'll find a menu item that says (in my case): "Send private message to malland". —Mitch/Paris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share #24 Posted February 18, 2013 My apologies... I was not aware of clichés in this thread. I'll make room for other members to help you with your question on how to connect and apply your monitor. All the best, Bert, A. I've done the test about the interaction of AdobeRGB image file (can be obtianed from M8, M9, X1 and X2) in a sRGB color space-enabled monitor, the rendering become somewhat pale and flatter. While browsing the sRGB file (D-lux x) on a AdobRGB-enabled monitor, the redening is too vivid with exaggerating color tonality. This implies that to enhance the image browsing experience, Leica dealer may help out by downloadinf the AdobeRGB color profile free from Adobe site and load up to customers' computer with preloaded Win 7 Home Premium OS. Computer maker just assume that only professional users whose Win 7 Professional or Ultimate need AdobeRGB color profile inside. B. My next science research is to buy an APPLE Thunderbolt-to-DVI cable, connecting my APPLE 15" Retina to Dell 2711 monitor (it features only a display port and a DVI terminal). The objective is to find out whether graphic card has impact on color rendering. My system's embedded card is AMD V4900, while that in APPLE 15" Retina is Nvidia GeForce 650M. Based on my observation, Nvidia graphic card seems come up with decent look than AMD, that serves photographer better. However, a A-B comaprion is needed to make a judgement. C. After I get the M240 (if features the "Leica Look"), I will do the comparison between compressed 8 bits DNG and linear 14 bits DNC file. When Leica brought out the 8 bit conversion (square root the sum of decimal number of each 14 binary value, then put into a look-up table of DNG file) in 2006, the polular resolution of monitor was 1280 x 720, or 1440 x 900 at the best, therefore, the effect of compression might not be appreciable. However, nowadays the resolution amounts to 2880 x 1800. Jono and Chris took picture only by compression DNG format. The linear 14 bits A/D conversion may works better, who knows ? Thus, I would to examine how it looks like. I believe that through some experiments concerning image redering enhancement, we can extract more subtlety from M240 to justify its real value. Look forward to hearing from you. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 18, 2013 Share #25 Posted February 18, 2013 A. I've done the test about the interaction of AdobeRGB image file (can be obtianed from M8, M9, X1 and X2) in a sRGB color space-enabled monitor, the rendering become somewhat pale and flatter. While browsing the sRGB file (D-lux x) on a AdobRGB-enabled monitor, the redening is too vivid with exaggerating color tonality. Thomas Chen That is predictable from the nature of the two color profiles, so not surprising. You can get the same effect by assigning an sRGB profile to an Adobe RGB (1998) image or vice versa. (assignment is not the same as conversion) This implies that to enhance the image browsing experience, Leica dealer may help out by downloadinf the AdobeRGB color profile free from Adobe site and load up to customers' computer with preloaded Win 7 Home Premium OS. Computer maker just assume that only professional users whose Win 7 Professional or Ultimate need AdobeRGB color profile inside. Thomas Chen I don't understand why this is an implication and if so, why a Leica dealer may help out in it. B. My next science research is to buy an APPLE Thunderbolt-to-DVI cable, connecting my APPLE 15" Retina to Dell 2711 monitor (it features only a display port and a DVI terminal). The objective is to find out whether graphic card has impact on color rendering. My system's embedded card is AMD V4900, while that in APPLE 15" Retina is Nvidia GeForce 650M. Based on my observation, Nvidia graphic card seems come up with decent look than AMD, that serves photographer better. However, a A-B comaprion is needed to make a judgement. Thomas Chen Grapics cards in itself do not have an impact on color rendering: they give digital signals to your monitor depending on the software that drives the card. Every brand of graphics card with the same software instructions will produce the same colors. C. After I get the M240 (if features the "Leica Look"), I will do the comparison between compressed 8 bits DNG and linear 14 bits DNC file. When Leica brought out the 8 bit conversion (square root the sum of decimal number of each 14 binary value, then put into a look-up table of DNG file) in 2006, the polular resolution of monitor was 1280 x 720, or 1440 x 900 at the best, therefore, the effect of compression might not be appreciable. However, nowadays the resolution amounts to 2880 x 1800. Thomas Chen Resolution has nothing to do with the number of bits used to create color on a screen. Jono and Chris took picture only by compression DNG format. The linear 14 bits A/D conversion may works better, who knows ? Thus, I would to examine how it looks like. I believe that through some experiments concerning image redering enhancement, we can extract more subtlety from M240 to justify its real value. Thomas Chen If the tiny and almost impossible to show difference between compressed and uncompressed format forms the basis of justification of a Leica M 240 for you, we live in completely different Leica worlds. Thomas, your postings are like salads of loosely thrown together technical statements, garnished with romantic metaphors and served in a bowl of mistranslation. Entertaining to consume, but in the end you have no idea what you have eaten and you are left with a strange empty feeling. I had better get my M9 out to capture some moments… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #26 Posted February 19, 2013 That is predictable from the nature of the two color profiles, so not surprising. You can get the same effect by assigning an sRGB profile to an Adobe RGB (1998) image or vice versa. (assignment is not the same as conversion) I don't understand why this is an implication and if so, why a Leica dealer may help out in it. Grapics cards in itself do not have an impact on color rendering: they give digital signals to your monitor depending on the software that drives the card. Every brand of graphics card with the same software instructions will produce the same colors. Resolution has nothing to do with the number of bits used to create color on a screen. If the tiny and almost impossible to show difference between compressed and uncompressed format forms the basis of justification of a Leica M 240 for you, we live in completely different Leica worlds. Thomas, your postings are like salads of loosely thrown together technical statements, garnished with romantic metaphors and served in a bowl of mistranslation. Entertaining to consume, but in the end you have no idea what you have eaten and you are left with a strange empty feeling. I had better get my M9 out to capture some moments… Bert, You are right in one aspect, however, not in the other . You've known already what I'm after - a M6 wonderland in the digital world. That's the reason why I'm trying so hard to find any factor involved that ensures me the best result out of M240 performance. As a matter of fact, many factors do affect the final output on the screen per so far I've seen. Therefore, What I'm doing is just the overture not the act. Once all the dust fall down, I like you, will bring my lovely toy shooting around the world. I've no any intention to look down upon the 8 bits, acutually a 14 bits format (with two LSB truncated from 16 bits) DNG file. I just want to know whether a linear 14 bits DNG format can do me a little better under the high-definition environment I'm after. So you have to trust me that my conduct is not only for my own benefit but also help making explicit Leica's advantage. Because I presume you as a top expert in the field of both technology and photography, I believe that you understand me and are willing to help me. However, if you are a genuine artist, we are really in different track how we see Leica and use Leica. Would you please tell me how can I contact the forum administer? I want to change the title of this thread as "Managing Viewing the Best from M240". The current title is too boring to attract any visitor to join discussion and make a contribution. I do need a lot of help and knowledge. I sincerely appreciate what you have done for me and wish that you can keep on helping me out in the lonely journey in quest of Leica's ultimate charisma. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #27 Posted February 19, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Gentlemen, You must be confused so much by the technological talks. To be short, Many years ago I successfully revitalized the “DECCA SOUND” in the digital audio world. Now I’m after the reincarnation of the “LEICA LOOK (M6)” in the digital image world. Urgently need you, the enthusiasts’ and experts’ strong support. Thank you very much. Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 19, 2013 Share #28 Posted February 19, 2013 Gentlemen, Many years ago I successfully revitalized the “DECCA SOUND” in the digital audio world. Now I’m after the reincarnation of the “LEICA LOOK (M6)” in the digital image world. Thomas Chen Like in sound systems, the end result depends on all links in the chain and their interaction towards the end product. So the links are (for the sake of time I'm simplifying here): 1] The world around you 2] Selection of the scene 3] The lens selection and its settings 4] The light sensitive layer and its settings/selection 5] Processing of the image 6] Display of the image (screen or print) Like you can see, a comparison of an M6 analog production on print with the present day process including a digital Leica M, differs only in points 4, 5 and 6 (assuming the world has not change too much in the years since you used your M6) The easiest to get the same, is point 6]: Find a dealer in Taiwan that prints on analog photographic paper (like a Durst Lambda). Point 4] is essentially different and can not be made the same. However, the combination of 4] and 5] can bring you what you want. To be able to see if you can have what you are looking for, a calibrated screen with wide gamut and correct color profile is necessary, before sending the file to the analog printing machine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2013 Share #29 Posted February 19, 2013 Gentlemen, You must be confused so much by the technological talks. To be short, Many years ago I successfully revitalized the “DECCA SOUND” in the digital audio world. Now I’m after the reincarnation of the “LEICA LOOK (M6)” in the digital image world. Urgently need you, the enthusiasts’ and experts’ strong support. Thank you very much. Thomas Chen Aren't you forgetting something? There is no M6 look. If you photograph any subject with the same lens the "look" is determined by the film and further processing, but in no way by the box that holds the film. You can get exactly the same look with a M6 as you can with an M3 or with a Praktika or an Olympus OM etc.... So the best you can try for is for instance an Elmar 5 cm 3.5 with Kodachrome "look"or any other combination. Your "Decca sound" resides in the Vinyl, not in the brand of the turntable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #30 Posted February 19, 2013 Aren't you forgetting something? There is no M6 look. If you photograph any subject with the same lens the "look" is determined by the film and further processing, but in no way by the box that holds the film. You can get exactly the same look with a M6 as you can with an M3 or with a Praktika or an Olympus OM etc....So the best you can try for is for instance an Elmar 5 cm 3.5 with Kodachrome "look"or any other combination. Agree! Mine is an oversimplified (or even stupid) description. Your interpretation (..with Kodachrome "look"..) is much much better, that only a true expert photographer can deliver. Thank you so much! Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #31 Posted February 19, 2013 5] Processing of the image 6] Display of the image (screen or print) To be able to see if you can have what you are looking for, a calibrated screen with wide gamut and correct color profile is necessary, before sending the file to the analog printing machine. Bert, Thanks for advices. "5] processing of the image" could be the issue. For myself I'm able to do so, however, for couples of image only, not a batch due to time constraint. I know many people they want and can afford a Leica M, just cannot or don't want to do the processing. Therefore, a good JPEG image straight out of camera seems to be a reasonable starting point. "6] Display of the image (screen or print)" . Amature photographer tends to browse image on screen. They don't do the chores of color management across hardwares. I just purchased the Dell 2711. Some time later I will need a Color Munki. Will answer some questions in your last last post later on. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share #32 Posted February 19, 2013 Your "Decca sound" resides in the Vinyl, not in the brand of the turntable. It is true that Shellac and Vinyl preserve more high frequency signal or brilliancy than CD, but not so for midtone and bass. The 'Legends" series CDs are made by 96 kHz, 24-bit re-mastering A/D conversion process rather than concentional 44.1 kHz, 16-bit process, produce much better dynamic range. However, it is the laser diode/circuits/firmware in the CD player, something like sensor/RAW data/JPEG algorithm, and high-definition gears that come up with what we perceive as a 3D ambience sound-stage. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 19, 2013 Share #33 Posted February 19, 2013 I prefer direct cut LPs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 19, 2013 Share #34 Posted February 19, 2013 However, it is the laser diode/circuits/firmware in the CD player, something like sensor/RAW data/JPEG algorithm, and high-definition gears that come up with what we perceive as a 3D ambience sound-stage. If you want the best, do not use JPEG when sending to the final printing process, but TIFF. Likewise the best sound systems do not use sound compression (like MP3) in the end stage. And again: 3D impression from an image depends on a complex set of properties of the image leading into brain processes in the visual cortex and beyond. (see for instance here) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #35 Posted February 20, 2013 Thomas, your postings are like salads of loosely thrown together technical statements, garnished with romantic metaphors and served in a bowl of mistranslation[ quote] Bert, Excellent metaphor by introducing "salads". Next comes the beef. Before European customer eat a piece of steak, he put on salt, black pepper, mushroom dressing, garlic and so on as he likes. When Chinese orders a beef cuisine, what waitress gives him is a stir-fried meal mixed with feef, vegatables, soybeen sauce, salt, sugar, garlic, pepper powder, peanut oil, rice wine, aniseed powder, asia parsely..... All of a sudden, we identify that it is the culture difference that discrimantes the preference for what straight come out of a digital M. Best Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #36 Posted February 20, 2013 Bert, Thank you veru much. Seeing the title of this thread changed, my Leica lense boys get so exicited to look forward to seeing their new mother soon. My I have the privilege to introduce you my boys? My Leica Treasure M6 (Titanium) x 2, M6 TTL (The Last 999, Ti), MP (Silver, Hammer Tone), M8 M 16-18-21 ASPH, M 21/2.8 ASPH, M24/2.8 ASPH M 28/2 APSH, M28/2.8, M28-35-50 ASPH M 35/1.4 (Titanium), M 35/1.4 ASPH (Silver, Ti) M 35/2 ASPH (Black, Silver, Ti) M 50/1.4 (Ti) M 50/2 (Black, Silver, Ti) M 75/1.4 M 90/2 APO ASPH (Black, Silver, Ti) M 90/2.8 (Silver, Ti) M 135/3.4 APO R 6.2, R 8 R 21-35, R 28/2.8, R 35-70/4, R 100/2.8 APO, ELPRO 1.2-1.1, R 135/3.4 APO D-Lux 4, 5, 6 Minilux x 2, Minilux Zoom, CM-Zoom, Z2X APO-Televid 77, Trinovid 8 x 20 BCA (Ti), Pradovit P150 All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #37 Posted February 20, 2013 I prefer direct cut LPs. Yes, they are the best of the best, but something like AGFA films............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #38 Posted February 20, 2013 If you want the best, do not use JPEG when sending to the final printing process, but TIFF. Likewise the best sound systems do not use sound compression (like MP3) in the end stage. And again: 3D impression from an image depends on a complex set of properties of the image leading into brain processes in the visual cortex and beyond. (see for instance here) Yes, shooting condition should be the most critical in the chain, something like an orchestra performance conducted by Karajan in Berliner Philharmoniker, to be recorded by Hr. Geunter Hermanns. All the best, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted February 20, 2013 Share #39 Posted February 20, 2013 Interesting to see that list of gear. More interesting to see your photographic work as an illustration of your technical mantra and artistic interpretation of the world around us. Where can we see it, Thomas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Chen Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share #40 Posted February 20, 2013 Interesting to see that list of gear. More interesting to see your photographic work as an illustration of your technical mantra and artistic interpretation of the world around us. Where can we see it, Thomas? Bert, That's why I'm so eager to get a M240. The cropping factor in M8 prevent me from seeing image in the outter field or edge to get a "Bokeh". Don't expect too much. Remember, I'm only an enthusiast amature who just love beautiful stuffs. Thanks for your recommendation about the book "Camera Raw-with Adobe Photoshop CS5". It is an excellent book, providing me with useful foundamental knowldge than when I read Capture One user manual. I've gone through chapter 1 & 2 and will keep on, then get hand-on experience on RAW conversion. It seems that Camera Raw cannot perform actual "sharpening" that has something to do with reducing "flatness" of an image, the act is only for preview. The sharpening should be done in the Photoshop CS5 or 6. However, the good thing is that 10 bit rendering on screen is only possible via Photoshop CS5 or 6, by checking some settings in the "performance menu". I still doubt that my friends are interested in image editing for a better look. Their use bahaviors are something like plugging in the SD card out of the M digital into a 55" SONY BRAVIA, or at the best use a tiny editor like FastStone to do minor adjustment on the JPEG file. As soon as I get the M240 I will do a comparison between Summilux 35/1.4 and Summilux 35/1.4 ASPH, the former for "Leica Glow" and the later for "Pin-sharp image" to see which one is more appealing in the high definition system. Thanks and Regards, Thomas Chen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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