sdai Posted April 27, 2007 Share #201 Posted April 27, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) And why can't the camera remember Kelvin settings, instead of just starting off at the lowest color temperature, 2000K? This reminds me of all the eBay M6/M7 listings boasting the camera has never been out of the door since purchase, perhaps that's the reason why it just defaults to indoor settings. LOL Regarding WB, all you need to do is remembering five numbers: Tungsten 3k, Fluorescent 4.5k, daylight 5.5k, cloudy 6k and shade 7k. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 27, 2007 Posted April 27, 2007 Hi sdai, Take a look here Official Response from Leica on Laundry List. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Philinflash Posted April 27, 2007 Share #202 Posted April 27, 2007 This comparison is not strictly fair. The so-called $200 digicam benefits from the awb circuitry designed by giant firms like Canon. They spend megabucks on a wb circuit for the top-of-the-line camera and it gets ported to the toy. I am sorry you find the comparison unfair but your agreement on the substance of my observation is implicit in your message. I posted this in the context of the "laundry list" thread of things Leica should be aware of. Perhaps you do not want Leica to improve its product to come up to market benchmarks in important performance categories, but I do. And I feel I have some company on this issue judging from other posts in this thread and elsewhere in LUF. Why not close some gaps in an otherwise superb piece of equipment? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 27, 2007 Share #203 Posted April 27, 2007 Concerning AWB: Seems to me unnecessary to continue stressing this problem element of the M8, since Leica has admitted that their approach to date has not worked and said that they are starting over from scratch. Whether the new approach will succeed we can't know, but Leica is working on the problem. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted April 27, 2007 Share #204 Posted April 27, 2007 This reminds me of all the eBay M6/M7 listings boasting the camera has never been out of the door since purchase, perhaps that's the reason why it just defaults to indoor settings. LOL Regarding WB, all you need to do is remembering five numbers: Tungsten 3k, Fluorescent 4.5k, daylight 5.5k, cloudy 6k and shade 7k. What is 2K Kelvin, Candle? And what is 13.1K Kelvin, Hillary's smile? Thanks for the color temp benchmarks, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted April 28, 2007 Share #205 Posted April 28, 2007 What is 2K Kelvin, Candle? And what is 13.1K Kelvin, Hillary's smile? Thanks for the color temp benchmarks, though. Actually, Candle light is 1850k, Philip ... as of Hillary's smile, it'll only match with highlight blown out. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted April 28, 2007 Share #206 Posted April 28, 2007 Actually, Candle light is 1850k, Philip ... as of Hillary's smile, it'll only match with highlight blown out. LOL Gee, I was closer than I dreamed on the first and now I know not to risk my camera on the second! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted April 28, 2007 Share #207 Posted April 28, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Concerning AWB: Seems to me unnecessary to continue stressing this problem element... --HC Gee, I really, really hope you are right! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted April 28, 2007 Share #208 Posted April 28, 2007 Gee, I really, really hope you are right! Yeah, so do I! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted April 28, 2007 Share #209 Posted April 28, 2007 Concerning AWB: Seems to me unnecessary to continue stressing this problem element of the M8, since Leica has admitted that their approach to date has not worked and said that they are starting over from scratch. Whether the new approach will succeed we can't know, but Leica is working on the problem. --HC I fully agree. This is an awkward problem, but it can be easily corrected on the RAW application (DNGs). We know Leica is working on it, so we only can wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted April 28, 2007 Share #210 Posted April 28, 2007 I fully agree. This is an awkward problem, but it can be easily corrected on the RAW application (DNGs). We know Leica is working on it, so we only can wait. Easily ? If you are capable of easily determining the white balance on every shot then you are really better than me. I am losing 10 minutes per shot maybe nowadays because of this problem, because ultimately white balance determines skin tone. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted April 28, 2007 Share #211 Posted April 28, 2007 Easily ? If you are capable of easily determining the white balance on every shot then you are really better than me. I am losing 10 minutes per shot maybe nowadays because of this problem, because ultimately white balance determines skin tone. Edmund Edmund--trust me on this, the Expodisc (or a custom WB set for the key light) is the way to go here. For some reason, I find the WhiBal method a little off on both M8 and DMR (and it's especially noticeable in skin tones), though it was very much better on the Canons. Having said that--I've never had really accurate skin tones out of any digital camera in all lighting (the Canons are best in natural light, and so is the M8. My DMR likes studio flash the best. I don't know why, but it could be some combination of sensor and profile handling). Under tungsten, especially, they all come up reasonably short unless you have a good custom WB. And then you probably want to warm it up from neutral; as many folks have mentioned, you can get a lot of noise in a low-light tungsten-balanced shot because the blue channel (which is typically noisiest) is cranked up to compensate for the light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted April 28, 2007 Share #212 Posted April 28, 2007 Under tungsten, especially, they all come up reasonably short unless you have a good custom WB. And then you probably want to warm it up from neutral; as many folks have mentioned, you can get a lot of noise in a low-light tungsten-balanced shot because the blue channel (which is typically noisiest) is cranked up to compensate for the light. Expodisc etc are unusable if you cannot see the lights (catwalk, theatre). As for the blue channel noise, I guess a blue (cooling) filter would work wonders, maybe Leica can make us an IR/blue filter Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted April 28, 2007 Share #213 Posted April 28, 2007 Edmund--trust me on this, the Expodisc (or a custom WB set for the key light) is the way to go here. For some reason, I find the WhiBal method a little off on both M8 and DMR (and it's especially noticeable in skin tones), though it was very much better on the Canons. Having said that--I've never had really accurate skin tones out of any digital camera in all lighting (the Canons are best in natural light, and so is the M8. My DMR likes studio flash the best. I don't know why, but it could be some combination of sensor and profile handling). Under tungsten, especially, they all come up reasonably short unless you have a good custom WB. And then you probably want to warm it up from neutral; as many folks have mentioned, you can get a lot of noise in a low-light tungsten-balanced shot because the blue channel (which is typically noisiest) is cranked up to compensate for the light. Jamie, Given that the smallest Expodisk is 58mm and my lenses range from e39 to 46mm filter size like a lot M8 users, do you just hold the Expodisk against the front of the lens to get a manual WB? I have been using my Leicagoodies SFILL flash softbox but only with limited success. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted May 10, 2007 Share #214 Posted May 10, 2007 Actually, they were previously accurate for a greater distance (2 or 3 m as I recall) but that meant that at close distances you would get less on the film than appeared in the frame. With the M8, Leica reset the framelines to be accurate at 0.7 m so you will not get less to the sensor than you expected. --HC Yes, they did the same thing when the M6 came out. The only problem is that framing is now accurate at 70cm, and wildly off the mark at normal working distances (3 or 5m to infinity). On the film M bodies is so bad that I won't shoot a 50mm on the newer cameras and only use that focal length on my M2/M4 cameras that show coverage at 1 meter. I read somewhere that the smaller 50mm markings show the coverage of a 60 or 65mm lens at infinity. That's a huge margain of error, even for a rangefinder. Now an interesting twist in this story is that Westlich has a prototype M body for auction with a variant of the M rangefinder that not only compensates for parallax in X and Y (like the one currently in production), but also in Z (depth). It varies the coverage that the framelines show, as you change focus distance. The camera is selling with a copy of the blue prints. Maybe its time for Leica to dust those plans off and solve this problem once and for all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george + Posted May 11, 2007 Share #215 Posted May 11, 2007 Thrid wrote: "Maybe its time for Leica to dust those plans off and solve this problem once and for all." Yes, I too noticed that Westlicht item in the catalog. And I agree with the above suggestion. While I was, and am, fully supportive of Leica having brought out it's first digital camera as a continuation of the M line, there is room for progress. Just the same as the M line was an intelligent but major improvement over the past, a similar technological leap may - eventually - be in order. And quite possible too. But let us not get into this while discussing current firmware. Let us wait a while to allow Leica a bit of time for consolidation in the digital age. In the meantime I am enjoying my M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 12, 2007 Share #216 Posted May 12, 2007 Expodisc etc are unusable if you cannot see the lights (catwalk, theatre). As for the blue channel noise, I guess a blue (cooling) filter would work wonders, maybe Leica can make us an IR/blue filter Edmund Gee how did I miss this? Actually, they're quite usable if you can bounce the source light off something relatively white (doesn't need to be exact). IOW, they're just as usable as a grey card, and maybe more--you can shoot the reference from the stage afterwards just like a grey card. But since you can focus on a key spot, you can ensure better white balance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted May 12, 2007 Share #217 Posted May 12, 2007 Jamie, Given that the smallest Expodisk is 58mm and my lenses range from e39 to 46mm filter size like a lot M8 users, do you just hold the Expodisk against the front of the lens to get a manual WB? I have been using my Leicagoodies SFILL flash softbox but only with limited success. Wilson Wilson, yes--you just buy a big Expodisc (I use the 77mm one--is bigger than all my lenses so far and hold it against lens for a second or two. It's quick. Quicker in many ways than a grey card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerimager Posted May 14, 2007 Share #218 Posted May 14, 2007 Complete agreement with Jamie on the expodisc. It's been my WB tool for several cameras (the Kodak 14nx has an especially clever in camera method of click balancing I wish Leica would incorporate), but it works great. I just hold it in front of the lens. Getting an incident WB from the light source is best, but reflective measures from the subject get you pretty close as well. Don't leave home without it! best...Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 14, 2007 Share #219 Posted May 14, 2007 Wilson, yes--you just buy a big Expodisc (I use the 77mm one--is bigger than all my lenses so far and hold it against lens for a second or two. It's quick. Quicker in many ways than a grey card. Jamie, If you had a ventilated hood fitted, would you remove it before you used the Expodisc, so that you did not get light leakage from behind or do you feel this would be insignificant? Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Von Tsouk Posted May 18, 2007 Share #220 Posted May 18, 2007 When reviewing a picture (in M8) the image becomes clear, from a pixelate image, with one or two seconds delay. Is this a normal characteristic for this camera or shall it be repaired at the factory? Shall I wait for a firmware update? The firmware I have now is 1.102and the camera was bought a week ago... Thanks in advance Guy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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