28 CV Ultron or Elmarit?

[ibogost]

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I'd like to pick up an "affordable" 28 to use with my M8.

 

The scare quotes on "affordable" are always appropriate when talking about Leica... but in this case I use them specifically to exclude the Summicron 2.0, so I don't want to hear how fantastic it is . It seems that the CV Ultron 1.9 and the new coded Elmarit 2.8 are the best bets.

 

The Elmarit's size is a plus of course, but the extra stop on the Ultron is also a plus. That's easy to spot though, what other feedback does anyone have on these? I've read Sean Reid's reviews of 28s on M8, but I'm looking for any additional comments from the field.

 

I know the Elmarit is impossible to find right now, but I have an opportunity to pick up an Ultron if I want it and so I'm trying to decide if I should just grab it and get on with my life.

[mat_mcdermott]

The Ultron is inexpensive by pretty much anyone's standards. Given the general lack of availability of the new Elmarit, why not just pick up the Ultron and if you don't like it sell it on to someone else. But this is coming from someone who would have pushed you towards the Summicron...

[tbarker13]

Haven't used both, so this has limited value. But I absolutely loved my Ultron. Recently had an opportunity to replace it with the Summicron. But I had to think a long time before making that change. The Ultron is a wonderful lens.

I used it alongside a 35 summilux while working on a 3-month project on a local theater troupe. And personally, I think it performed well in lighting that was often quite challenging.

[LJL]

Here is a thought.....think about ability to get things coded as part of your overall cost. Right now, I have three great CV lenses (15/4.5, 35/1.2 and 50/1.5) plus a great Zeiss option (24/2.8) and none of them can be hand coded without some serious contortions, new(old) mount rings, underground manufacture, etc. Not trying to be too flippant here, as some CV and Zeiss glass is every bit as good or better in some case than similar Leica glass, yet most cannot be coded, and that is looking like it is going to become a rather important issue until something gives with firmware, patents, or processing software, and so far, none of those are budging.

 

While the Ultron may be the best bang for the buck, if you have to use filters for you shooting, think about how you are going to manage the lovely cyan corners.

 

LJ

[ibogost]

Great comments, all. Matt's suggestion is the pragmatic one certanily, and it might make the most sense. The Ultron seems to retain its value for second hand purchases/sale. Still, I can wait if I need to, and sometimes more choice isn't best

 

L.J., your point is well taken. Sean had a long section on hand coding in his review, and it was not always simple. However, one benefit of the Ultron is that it's a screw mount, so there's a little more flexibility in coding an M adaptor ring (or at least in making mistakes). But, then again you seem to suggest that the coded mount ring solution is a "serious contortion" ... sounds like you have more experience here, so I'd love to hear more about that.

[LJL]

Great comments, all. Matt's suggestion is the pragmatic one certanily, and it might make the most sense. The Ultron seems to retain its value for second hand purchases/sale. Still, I can wait if I need to, and sometimes more choice isn't best

 

L.J., your point is well taken. Sean had a long section on hand coding in his review, and it was not always simple. However, one benefit of the Ultron is that it's a screw mount, so there's a little more flexibility in coding an M adaptor ring (or at least in making mistakes). But, then again you seem to suggest that the coded mount ring solution is a "serious contortion" ... sounds like you have more experience here, so I'd love to hear more about that.

 

 

Ian,

I have not been able to get any coding with sharpies or other things to work on the CV 15, 35 or 50, nor the Zeiss. The problem is around the cutout area on the mount ring for most, as there is not enough area for any markings to be applied. The older 9cm LTM lens mount evidently has enough area without the cutouts to work in some cases. Good luck finding them. The Zeiss has two problems....one is that the lens mount calls up the 28mm framelines, and the second is that there is a screw in the way where the coding would be applied. In that case you need to have both the frameline call-up and coding working properly. Zeiss will retrofit that lens for 60 euros plus shipping to call up the 24/35 framelines, but the screwhole is still in the way where the codes go, so there has to be some way to cover it, but not create too much thickness to interfere with lens mounting.

 

I really do not know how the coding for hte Ultron works, but I think you have to use the old 9cm LTM mount ring for the 28/90 framelines and to have enough space for the bar coding to be applied. This is worth checking into, as if you cannot over come that, you will be fighting cyan drift whenever filters are used.

 

Just my thinking and a bit of frustrating experience on this

 

LJ

[ibogost]

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LJ - reading your comments and Sean's review again, of course you are right about the notch. It's a good point. Even if the Elmarit is $1000 more, the time cost of applying corrections in post, possibly in vain, is clearly an important consideration. I haven't had any problems shooting unfiltered on my 50s, which may suggest that my subjects are less IR lit, but then again, the wider field of view of the 28 might change what I choose to shoot.

[ibogost]

Haven't used both, so this has limited value. But I absolutely loved my Ultron. Recently had an opportunity to replace it with the Summicron. But I had to think a long time before making that change. The Ultron is a wonderful lens.

I used it alongside a 35 summilux while working on a 3-month project on a local theater troupe. And personally, I think it performed well in lighting that was often quite challenging.

 

Tim, given the comments above, what has been your experience with the Ultron filtered/unfiltered relative to the coding issue?

[LJL]

LJ - reading your comments and Sean's review again, of course you are right about the notch. It's a good point. Even if the Elmarit is $1000 more, the time cost of applying corrections in post, possibly in vain, is clearly an important consideration. I haven't had any problems shooting unfiltered on my 50s, which may suggest that my subjects are less IR lit, but then again, the wider field of view of the 28 might change what I choose to shoot.

 

Ian,

I do not think the 50mm and up really need coding, except for EXIF data and maybe Leica flash, as there is no cyan corner problem when filters are used. With the wider lenses, this is a much more pronounced problem. My CV 35/1.2 is borderline with respect to cyan corners when using a filter. The Zeiss 25/2.8 has noticeable cyan corners with the filter, but is fantastic without one. The CV 15 is great without any filters, unless you are doing a lot of critical landscape shooting or interiors where IR light may be rather strong. So far, I have been getting by with Jamie's profiles for that, and things have worked out pretty nicely.

 

Not trying to scare anybody away from great, less expensive glass at all, as I have it and think some of it is incredible, cost not withstanding. The inability to use Leica in camera correction via coding is the problem. With the 28, it will be an issue, I think.

 

LJ

[tbarker13]

I probably should have added more to my post. I was using the lens with the Epson R-D1 before I replaced it with the M8. And 90 percent of what I shoot is B&W. So I haven't done much experimentation with the IR filters (though my freebies just arrived from Leica this morning) and my M8.

[ibogost]

Well, I decided to wait on the Elmarit for the time being. I can always pick up the Ultron if I don't want to wait. The main benefit of the deal I was looking for would have been an essentially free M mount, but given the cutout LJ mentioned that doesn't seem to be the solution I thought it might have been.

[cjago]

I know the Elmarit is impossible to find right now, but I have an opportunity to pick up an Ultron if I want it and so I'm trying to decide if I should just grab it and get on with my life.

 

I'm using both on the M8.

 

Even if you are not shooting IR rich subjects, the vignetting creates a colour challenge on uncoded lenses. Light skies, for example will show colour in the corners unless you code.

 

An important difference that I haven't seen anybody mention is the hoods. The Elmarit has a more effective hood. For what I do, that has proven to be important.

 

For me, the great strength of the Ultron is the way it deal with highlights on film. This is (mostly) lost on digital.

 

For a mix of these reasons, the Elmarit gets the M8 action.

 

An example

[sean_reid]

I use my 28 Ultron with a Leitz 9cm adapter that John Millich machined for me (for free) with the millings for 6-bit coding. After the coded Leica lenses themselves, my favorite lenses on the M8 (if using filters) are LTM-mount because these can be used with a set of milled adapters that I now have.

 

If one uses a lens with a correctly matched Leitz adapter (with no cutout) then it certainly can be hand-coded 100% of the time if the code markings are accurate. But, of course, these are not permanent so one needs to refresh them from time to time. Therefore, the most reliable and no-hassle solution is either a coded Leica lens or an LTM lens with milled adapter.

 

I'd suggest trying the Ultron - even uncoded with a 486 filter. See what you think. The Ultron and Elmarit Asph. are almost at the opposite ends of the contrast scale - that preference will come down to taste, etc.

 

Colin,

 

What exactly did you think was lost (re: Ultron's rendering of highlights) with digital capture?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[fjmcsu]

I don't have any CV lenses but do have the Elamait 28 & it is a wonderfully compact, sharp contrasty lens well worth the money. I ordered it after I had received my M8 from the dealer & received it about 2 weeks later.That was about 1 montha ago, so perhaps availablity has detiorated since then. My point is I feel I didn't have to wait that long for the lens & it performs as expected so I would go for it if possible.Good luck

[robsteve]

Ian,

I really do not know how the coding for hte Ultron works, but I think you have to use the old 9cm LTM mount ring for the 28/90 framelines and to have enough space for the bar coding to be applied. This is worth checking into, as if you cannot over come that, you will be fighting cyan drift whenever filters are used.

 

Just my thinking and a bit of frustrating experience on this

 

LJ

 

I coded a 9cm adapter using a template and a small drill to make the indentations. Here it is on my 15mm and coded as a wate. I made all the indents as the brass may not be bright enough to show up as the white dot.

 

 

I would go with the Leica lenses as the new firmware is supposed to require coded lenses to apply the corrections.

[ibogost]

Thanks everyone for your useful feedback. I feel more informed than I did before. Happy to hear anything more as well.

 

Sean, the custom milled adapters are such a unique item... until someone starts machining them in mass quantities the hand coding solution you propose is still a rather difficult one. Your review doesn't include hand-coded Ultron photos yet, any sense when those will be available?

[argomazov]

I coded a 9cm adapter using a template and a small drill to make the indentations. Here it is on my 15mm and coded as a wate. I made all the indents as the brass may not be bright enough to show up as the white dot.

 

 

I would go with the Leica lenses as the new firmware is supposed to require coded lenses to apply the corrections.

 

Robert, this is something that I am planning to do as well, once my adapters arrive. What kind of paint did you use?

 

Thanks,

Luca

[carstenw]

The type of paint shouldn't really matter. However, this paint looks relatively shiny. I would recommend using matte paint, perhaps model paint, to avoid reflections off the surface giving false readings.

[luigi bertolotti]

I have read with interest this thread, for I have an Elmarit 28 non asph that,as formal Leica docs say, is of a s/n that CAN be officialy coded. Has someone experience on this? (I have not yet bought my M8...but soon...) And i repeat: if some good repair shop (in Europe, by myself) starts to do professional "hand coding" of S-to-B adapters or directly on BM lenses, lot of business to come in: CV and Zeiss I see start to really catch on with M8 users...

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[cjago]

Colin,

 

What exactly did you think was lost (re: Ultron's rendering of highlights) with digital capture?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean,

 

Starting from the well known stuff about the shape of the response curve of film versus digital.....I've found that the Ultron is one of those lenses that can really make the most of the top end of the range. With HP5 you get a softness and a glow at the extreme top of the exposure that I find very pleasing (with the right subject etc etc).

 

With digital, the sudden cut off takes effect and the lens loses much of this characteristic.

 

With film, I will sometimes chose the Ultron over my 35mm Summicron, even if I then have to crop the frame, if the subject has demanding highlights.

 

It is all taste, of course.