edlaurpic Posted March 18, 2007 Share #1 Posted March 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I haven't met anyone who has owned a Leica M body who likes the shutter sound of the M8. I have learned to live with it, but it still really bothers me and I keep wishing it sounded like an M3 or MP. At the very least - and I know I am not the only one who has been lobbying for this since the M8 came out - the shutter should open and close when the button is depressed, but re-cocking of the shutter should not occur until you release pressure on the button or lift your finger. SO HERE IS A WAY TO SIMULATE WHAT THIS WOULD SOUND LIKE . . . Turn on your camera to single shot mode. Remove your lens cap. Set the shutter speed dial to Bulb (. Depress the shutter release and hold your finger down for a couple of seconds. Now release your finger. Voila! Now why can't Leica change the firmware so that that is the way that every shot at any speed, including using A-Priority, would work in the (S) single shot mode? When the shutter release is set to C for continuous shooting, the camera could work the way it does now so that releasing the shutter and recocking would occur at the same time, but I would much prefer the method above for the S mode. What do you think? Anybody have any idea of whether this could be done with firmware so that a hardware change would not be necessary? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 18, 2007 Posted March 18, 2007 Hi edlaurpic, Take a look here What an M8 should (could?) sound like . . .. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gravastar Posted March 18, 2007 Share #2 Posted March 18, 2007 A real implementation would probably sound a little different. When you use the B setting the shutter opens when you press the release but doesn't close and recock until you take your finger off. If Leica did do what we'd like the shutter would open and close when you pressed the release and would only recock when you released, so the initial sound may be louder. It's something I hope Leica will try to do - the camera's too loud for some events. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlaurpic Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share #3 Posted March 18, 2007 You're correct, Bob. On B the M8 shutter does work as you describe...I was just suggesting that if the sound were bifurcated, it would probably be less obtrusive. Granted, the first sound would probably be a little louder than what happens on B now, but it would still be a short-lived less complicated sound, followed later, when your finger is lifted, by a shorter duration re-cocking sound. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckcars Posted March 19, 2007 Share #4 Posted March 19, 2007 Sure glad I am fresh with Leica and looking forward to receipt of an M8. Makes it so I dont have to forget anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted March 19, 2007 Share #5 Posted March 19, 2007 I am not a Leicaphile to the extent that I approve anything they do. Actually if you read my threads I believe that I have tried to point out those areas where they not only can, but actually need to make improvements. Having said that, this issue with shutter noise, where folks are comparing the cloth shutters of the classic M series with the faster (and ultimately better) shutters of the M8 it is a real non-sequiter. Most of the noise that folks are complaining about is really the noise of recocking the shutter for the next shot. It definitely is not the noise of the shutter itself as images are taken. Perhaps we should ask Leica to do what the RD1 did which is to allow a manual recocking of the shutter so that the only noise when taking images is the shutter itself. Short of that there is nowhere to go. If we believe that manual recocking of the shutter is a significant benefit, then let's let Leica know our thoughts. Otherwise this comparison of the M6 with an M8 is irrelevant! Woody Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 19, 2007 Share #6 Posted March 19, 2007 Ed, to my ear the big problem is the clack of the shutter closing. The motor itself is quite quiet, so unfortunately I dont think your suggestion would move us forward too much. When i first got my Nikon F3 I thought it had a terribly laud action, thinking the problem was mirror slap I tried the mirror lock up, only to find that all the noise comes from the metal shutter itself, doh. I seem to remember Irwin Puts has written about the M6 / M7 shutter, and the laudest aspect is decelerating the 2nd shutter curtain. Seems feasible that the problem is similar on the M8 for similar technical reasons. Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
californiajay Posted March 19, 2007 Share #7 Posted March 19, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was in college when the M5 appeared on the scene. I still remember the complaints from Leicaphiles about that camera. They were so loud and clear that the camera was discontinued in record time. Now almost 30 years later, it seems as if the same Leicaphiles are at it again with the M8. I say this not with criticism but with real fondness, as to an extent, I am one of them too. However, one must realize a very important thing...for the past several years, up until very recently, Leica has not been the healthiest of companies. Surely much of what is absent in current models is something that Leica has (wisely) discounted due to this. As they make a comeback they have to adapt to a very new era or they risk losing everything! That said, what do most people want these days? 1/8000 sec top shutter speed. High speed flash synch. Built-in motors. All the electronics that go into a modern day digital body that must make that body a tad bigger than previous ones. Etc. Etc. But you and I, the Leicaphiles want everything to remain constant, but give us the new technology as well. We Leicaphiles are not the norm. We are not the mainstream. Unfortunately though, if Leica continues to cater to us and only us, they don't sell enough cameras. When the M8 first appeared and I saw that it had a built-in motor, I cringed. I really did. But you know what? It was a marketing decision. Leica wants to sell cameras and they want to sell to as many people as they can. No, I don't like the built-in motor, but no I am also not the mainstream that apparently wants a camera that has one. Is the M8 too noisy? A tad, yes. Can I live with it? Of course I can! It's not an M6 guys, but it's pretty darn good for what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 19, 2007 Share #8 Posted March 19, 2007 Not a M user until the M8 but i came from Hassy and many DSLR's and honestly after listening to a Hassy for 15 years anything is quiet. I actually like the sound, okay i'm weird but at least i know the shutter went off. I shoot the M8 in big corporate meetings were you can hear a pin drop and after about 20 of these jobs with the M8 no one has ever given me the stare and i am usually right on top of these guys with a 90mm as there giving there pitch. But i have to say it is not a film M8 and this is a electronic shutter that gives you some great benefits and leica did the right thing by doing it 1/8000 and a 1/250 sync is needed more than some folks think. I would not buy a camera with a lower sync speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 19, 2007 Share #9 Posted March 19, 2007 Guy, I hear what your saying, and lets not get carried away, the M8 is not all that laud. However for me personally, for this type of camera, it needs to be as discreet as possible and moving from an M7 (with electronically controlled shutter) the M8 shutter noise is a step backwards. I played around with an entry level, plastic fantastic, DSLR last night, I swear it was subjectively quieter than my M8.... Also, for me, an M camera is not about flash lighting, its about natural lighting and being lightweight, mobile and discreet. I am happy to see that the M8 is bringing Leica new customers (I know Guy was using the DMR before), but I for one dont want Leica to go after the 'all the features' section of the market. They cant compete with the Japanese feature wise, and they would risk loosing their niche appeal. Digressing slightly, I am disapointed by a number of things on the M8, where it frankly doesnt stand up well against my D2X. These are usability issues and practical features like control interface, options, menus, parameter controls, battery management, battery life etc. However what the M8 is good at, it is very good at, and hence its appeal. Your mileage may vary of course! Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhusick Posted March 19, 2007 Share #10 Posted March 19, 2007 I think Ed's idea is very good. He's not asking Leica to completely redesign the camera, he's simply asking "can we hold down the shutter release and let it go when it's a more discreet time?" I think it would be great to drop the camera by my side to let it recock the shutter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted March 19, 2007 Share #11 Posted March 19, 2007 Aren't we going at least slightly overboard on this shutter noise issue? How important is it? The sound of an M8 is at least distinct and 'self-contained' – there's no mirror slap and no aperture mechanism rattle, as on an SLR. So I don't really find it irritating. Also, I think that the noise issue is less important from a practical point of view than some think. I have crept up on people with a chromed SLR and a 21 (admittedly, not a motorized Nikon) and fired away without anybody noticing me. You yourself are much bigger and more noticeable than any camera you carry, and your bearing and behavior is far more important than camera noise (again, excepting that howling Nikon). It's sort of Zen, man. Now if I really need something quiet, more silent than that rattling M4P, then I'll carry a rangefinder camera with a Compur shutter. Only an owl would react to that. Yes, I do own such a camera. It's called a Retina IIIC. The old man from the Age of Steam Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 19, 2007 Share #12 Posted March 19, 2007 Certainly the sound of a D2x in full flight at 8 cropped frames a second is enough to wake the dead... On the M8, the shutter provides important feedback that the picture has been taken - on the Digilux 2, they have to resort to a sound effect because the machanical click you hear is the shutter closing AFTER the image has been captured. If the M8 is the quietened version with the fancy cam and rubber roller, can you imaging what it sounded like to start with? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted March 19, 2007 Share #13 Posted March 19, 2007 The M8 is noisier than my M7, and I certainly prefer the M7's sound, but the M7 is one of the quietest of all M Leicas. Compare the M8 to a somewhat equivalent camera, the Contax G1 or G2, and you'll quickly learn to love the sound of the M8. Although I wish it was quieter, the M8 is no worse than most motor-driven metal-shutter cameras. Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&W Posted March 19, 2007 Share #14 Posted March 19, 2007 I like the M7 sound better than M8 The M8 is not too loud but the re-cocking is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 19, 2007 Share #15 Posted March 19, 2007 Oops, having played with 'B' as Ed originally suggested I find that the clack that I so dislike is part of the shutter opening. So much for my powers of observation..... The M7 is definately quieter, but even then its not the quietest option, as already pointed out, but just the quietest Leica M option. Lars, would you shrug your shoulders if Leica started putting out soft lenses, on the basis that lenses from other manufacturers are soft as well? One of (but clearly not the only) advantages of the M cameras has been their quiet shutter, and in that respect the M8 is a step backwards. No, its not the end of the world as we know it, but it is a step backwards. It may not bother you, it does bother me. Thank goodness we are not all clones... Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted March 19, 2007 Share #16 Posted March 19, 2007 I rather like the M8 sound. It's unique and over time probably will become associated with the camera's 'personality'. It's not quiet like the cloth shutter M's or the Rollei TLR, but it's db measurement is slightly lower then the Canon 5D. Unlike with the cloth shutter I can use a lens wide open in any light with 1/8000 shutter speed and get fast flash sync. I'm good with that trade off. While most Leica users may not care about flash, the ability to isolate a subject in full light with a wide open aperture is very much an available light photographer's control issue and in my book more important then a small increase in the shutter noise. My last RF was a Plaubel Makina 670. I loved that camera but the shutter sound was like slamming the door on an old Mercedes 600 limo. Compared to the Plaubel or the Hassy I was using the M8 is positively silent.Having said all that anything Leica can do to let the user control the wind on noise would be welcome for environments where any noise is obtrusive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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