Jager Posted October 17, 2012 Share #21 Posted October 17, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) IMHO the M9 produces wonderful, excellent monochrome images. Good as it is, the MM produces better monochrome images in every respect. Not even close. That said, the chosen tool pales relative to the person wielding it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Hi Jager, Take a look here Should I cancel my MM order?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
platypus Posted October 17, 2012 Share #22 Posted October 17, 2012 Yes, if you feel like that, you probably should. If you are not totally committed don't spend the dollars....or you might rue the day!! On the other hand then you will never know what you are missing. Either way you are always going to be wondering aren't you? Life is like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
W4Leica Posted October 18, 2012 Share #23 Posted October 18, 2012 To me, Leica MM pictures do look flat. Initially, I was happy with Leica's efforts for producing new models, and consider for one. But after seeing review pictures, I change my mind and pass MM. If I want to shoot BW, I will go back with my reliable M6 TTL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Posted October 18, 2012 Share #24 Posted October 18, 2012 To me, Leica MM pictures do look flat. Initially, I was happy with Leica's efforts for producing new models, and consider for one. But after seeing review pictures, I change my mind and pass MM. If I want to shoot BW, I will go back with my reliable M6 TTL. You're reading the wrong reviews. As far as 'review pictures' are concerned I don't blame you..Most images I've seen before I bought my Monochrome didn't impress me either. Look at the tonal range of this file from the Monochrome. (30 seconds of post production..just increasing exposure etc.) Monochrome files are extremely easy to work with. There have been many unimpressive images (as expected) for the Monochrome. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy or unimpressed by this camera... The other image was taken at 6400 ISO..again,, very fast pp. Lastly the bus image at 1600 ISO..flat? (mods if this is too much i understand if you wanna delete!) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/190334-should-i-cancel-my-mm-order/?do=findComment&comment=2144051'>More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted October 18, 2012 Share #25 Posted October 18, 2012 Misattribution. 'twas not my words. I am not sure how that happened ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 18, 2012 Share #26 Posted October 18, 2012 An interesting thing regarding the experienced photographer is that he might choose opportunities, individual frames that best fit the light and especially tonalities he values. In other words he understands the careful course of compromises he must navigate to approximate his pre-visualization. His course is hidden from the rest of us and quite likely not even known by the photographer himself. But it works, comes into our shared reality for better or ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted October 18, 2012 Share #27 Posted October 18, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) This thread may have gone on long enough for me -- I am not one to argue taste. Here is a group of musicians in Paris who were performing Bach free in a church in Paris. Beautiful music, and the players had a purity of purpose that I appreciated. The MM allowed me to offer them some images as my contribution. IS0 5000 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/190334-should-i-cancel-my-mm-order/?do=findComment&comment=2144060'>More sharing options...
Avatar Posted October 18, 2012 Share #28 Posted October 18, 2012 An interesting thing regarding the experienced photographer is that he might choose opportunities, individual frames that best fit the light and especially tonalities he values. In other words he understands the careful course of compromises he must navigate to approximate his pre-visualization. His course is hidden from the rest of us and quite likely not even known by the photographer himself. But it works, comes into our shared reality for better or ... that's very well stated and so true. All this talk about 'should I buy a Monochrome' is crazy to me and yet of course, I respect the OP posting it as it's not for everyone and for someone shopping and committed to purchasing such a camera based on blogs, etc..is bound to be confused. The Monochrome is just like a high end Porsche GT3 or like..It's for those who know what they want and hopefully know how to drive (but clearly not the case for most) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramosa Posted October 18, 2012 Share #29 Posted October 18, 2012 Cancel the order immediately. If you feel that SH is the ultimate photographer/post-processor' date=' just wait another month to when he sells the MM and buys his "next big thing".[/quote'] I like Steve's site, but this one cracked me up. It is difficult to keep up with his ever-changing gear list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted October 18, 2012 Share #30 Posted October 18, 2012 God is it just me? As I see these grey, sterile, flat, lifeless images touted by their creators as masterful, I just don't see it! Then I open "The Sahel" by Salgado or look at the recent work by Aue Sobol.... finally, going to the Flickr site of this LUF member: Actor Ray | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (and I really don't want to embarrass him, but look at all the comments on any of his images) ...then all is right in the world once again. William - I admire your work a great deal. Just the other day I emailed to several friends links to the recent article on your work, saying, "You really need to see this." When a photographer of your stature puts down the photography of folks on the forum, saying it doesn't measure up to Salgado's finest, one might be stung, as I was, or amused by the notion that looking at photography by Salgado cured the malaise brought on by looking at work not his -- or your -- equal. But it is certainly an expression lacking in the grace you show in your photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted October 18, 2012 Share #31 Posted October 18, 2012 Thank you John, eloquently said. Most of that comes form this post here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/255311-leica-monochrom-shots-8.html#post2209859 I don't see you coming into defend me here? Maybe I missed it. Anyway, this person who relies on 40 years of experience (said over and over and over) if you care to follow his threads, basically says I use a photo copier, the camera is beyond me, and welcome to the black and white world, maybe some day you will get it. Pardon me, picked up my first camera 6 years ago, Leica has bought numerous images from me, including LFI where 2 images of mine are featured along with 11 images of mine as you wait for the LFI iPad App to load. He blathers on about how if you are lucky enough to take my first class teaching for the Leica Akademie coming up, (I have been doing it for years). Then admits he's never gotten a good print out of a M9 after doing a conversion (I have been getting magnificent prints with a list of clients that have been ordering them for years). And I'm the f*cking amateur here?! Anyway JOHN, if you care to take even the most cursory checks of our dear Forum you would see this person STARTED it. And YES, I feel most of his posts are bland and boring, as one person says, probably canceling their order. Dare I say it, I'm sure he's never gone into the bush and had AK-47s pointed to his head, as well as spears up against his scrotum to get the shot. I have. In fact it is very obvious that he is afraid of shooting people. the back sides of statues seem more his liking. (To each their own). Dear John (cliche, I know), feel free to put me on your Ignore List,as you are now on mine, not for what you said, thank you for that, but the fact you didn't even give the slightest look around before making the comment. Fel free to continue sticking up for this individual as i won't see your comments. As I explore this camera (as i have done with everyone before this) and fully intend to use contrast filters at the most inopportune times, against HIS suggestion, I will discover things rather than be locked in a box. Example Yellow-Green: only for Landscapes. I'll use it for portraits only because everyone tells me not to . And his Images ARE FLAT! When I decide to print images,probably after my 10 day get away to Paris with wife to take her to a Ball (Princess Catherine deStigliano beckoning me once again.), while I shoot the city from Morning to Dusk and beyond I will continue to make prints that will blow obviously only myself away. If I decide to blow highlights, it is because I wanted to. if I decide to block shadows, the same. But John, feel free to continue to stick up for this....(edited by author) Thamk you, no need to send my links anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Posted October 18, 2012 Share #32 Posted October 18, 2012 Dare I say it, I'm sure he's never gone into the bush and had AK-47s pointed to his head, as well as spears up against his scrotum to get the shot." Pics or it didn't happen. Who cares what anyone says really? Speaking for myself, if comments like that were directed at me, I hope I would laugh it off, as it's absurd..We do it our way..no explanation needed unless we are asking for feedback. Back on topic. No to the OP, don't cancel your order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
msbel Posted October 18, 2012 Share #33 Posted October 18, 2012 OP - I was once taught an exercise to help when you are tormented about a conflicted decision...while in the midst of going back and forth in your spinning head.. 1) Take a deep breath 2) Exhale What popped in your mind? Do that. If you still doubt it, try again. Did the same thing pop in your head? Do that. Be confident and assured. Do not look back. No more than two times. On the MM, I have no experience with it. From what I see, fantastic and alluring. Am I going to stay up all night wondering if my images from other gear are now inferior because I don't have one - no. That would put me (back) into the asylum. It was suggested to me to shoot some rolls of bw in my film M, play with filters, be patient with myself, scan some images, get used to the workflow, do not over-judge the images, do a little pp to see how nuances differ, and if you like the ritual, the feeling, the nuance of making images this way, then the MM may be a good fit for digital....for you. Heck, I think that process of discovery alone would be a blast... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted October 18, 2012 Share #34 Posted October 18, 2012 While people have hooted about the high ISOs and resolution, I've heard very little about the actual rendering of the sensor (Pico, kudos to you, and to you borger for admitting seeing horribles from the MM) compared to the M9. You don't need to 'hear' anything about the rendering of the MM sensor, just look at the photographs, which in 99% of cases are horrible flat things. But this perhaps assumes people are simply showing what the files look like straight out of the camera, rather than when they have been adjusted to have an impact in post processing. Certainly having some small level of post processing skills can transform the grey blandness of an MM file. Look at the work of Jacob Sobel done with an MM to show the extreme end of what is possible. So you shouldn't be buying the camera based on the awful images often shown as examples of how 'photographic' they look, because no good silver photograph has ever looked like that. But you should be buying it on the potential it offers, and all to often people who comment on sites like Steve Huff's omit this small detail from their critique because they simply expect a camera to do everything for them. It's like when people come out with comments like 'I won't be buying this-or-that camera because the colour saturation isn't high enough'. You know they don't have a clue. But while an MM does have a resolution advantage over an M9, it has to be said that not much small camera B&W photography in the past has relied on resolution for its impact. And where resolution is important, perhaps in landscape photography, it also has to be said a roll of 120 sheet of 4x5 and a few colour filters offer more control over the B&W image than the MM can with its greyscale reproduction. So the quandary is would using an M9 and converting RGB colour files in Silver Efex Pro get you nearer to the B&W images you have in your minds eye, or are you going to use the resolution offered by the MM but then overcome the post processing challenge of greyscale images. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted October 18, 2012 Share #35 Posted October 18, 2012 God is it just me? As I see these grey, sterile, flat, lifeless images touted by their creators as masterful, I just don't see it! Then I open "The Sahel" by Salgado or look at the recent work by Aue Sobol.... finally, going to the Flickr site of this LUF member: Actor Ray | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (and I really don't want to embarrass him, but look at all the comments on any of his images) ...then all is right in the world once again. True but if in the olden days you shot with Ilford panchromatic film I should imagine you would have got a similar result as with the MM and if you shot with something like FP4 you got a more contrasty shot similar to Rolo's portrait. Personally I would love the power to recover shadow detail the way you can with the MM but there again you can get a lot of shadow deatil back when using the M9 an LR4. In my case I'm waiting to see on the IQ from the new M to make a decision on the MM as I am really reluctant to give up the power of converting colour files in Silveref Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colint544 Posted October 18, 2012 Share #36 Posted October 18, 2012 I traded in my m9-P for an MM. I was converting 90% of my files to black and white anyway. Have had no regrets, and am astounded by what the MM is capable of. Certainly the files are flat straight out of the camera, but that's exactly what you want. A flat file retains all the information required for burning and dodging. Here is a shot from the MM. Best regards all, Colin Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/190334-should-i-cancel-my-mm-order/?do=findComment&comment=2144168'>More sharing options...
colint544 Posted October 18, 2012 Share #37 Posted October 18, 2012 Oh, and here is another from the MM, at the opposite end of the spectrum. 3200 ISO - I couldn't even have thought about a shot like this with my M9-P. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/190334-should-i-cancel-my-mm-order/?do=findComment&comment=2144170'>More sharing options...
THEME Posted October 18, 2012 Share #38 Posted October 18, 2012 God is it just me? As I see these grey, sterile, flat, lifeless images touted by their creators as masterful, I just don't see it! Then I open "The Sahel" by Salgado or look at the recent work by Aue Sobol.... finally, going to the Flickr site of this LUF member: Actor Ray | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (and I really don't want to embarrass him, but look at all the comments on any of his images) ...then all is right in the world once again. Salgado's and Aue Sobol's works are heavily post-processed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 18, 2012 Share #39 Posted October 18, 2012 Salgado's and Aue Sobol's works are heavily post-processed. Does that matter? Presumably what those photographers had in mind when they pressed the shutter release was something like you see in the final reproduction. What they did (or use) to get to that point seems to me to be of only academic interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobfrance Posted October 18, 2012 Share #40 Posted October 18, 2012 God is it just me? As I see these grey, sterile, flat, lifeless images touted by their creators as masterful, I just don't see it! Then I open "The Sahel" by Salgado or look at the recent work by Aue Sobol.... finally, going to the Flickr site of this LUF member: Actor Ray | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (and I really don't want to embarrass him, but look at all the comments on any of his images) ...then all is right in the world once again. I don't post here much any more as I no longer own any Leica equipment, but I'd like to say that I don't think it's the cameras sensitivity to light that really matters - it's the photographer's. I know Rolo and have seen him at work. What his ability brings to his shots cannot be bought; it is a skill that has been developed over many years. Such ability more than negates the minor differences found between camera models. If you wish to improve your images, best to concentrate upon how you spend your time and not your money... Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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