Jeff S Posted September 23, 2012 Share #41 Posted September 23, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) My comment has nothing to do with CMOS; just on your earlier post in this thread (that I quoted) saying the only thing that could interest you in the M10 (now the M) would be use of R lenses. Your May thread said otherwise....strongly otherwise. I doubted it then, and already your thoughts are changing (not quite a decade later ). Heck, I have no vested interest in what you think or do, but this isn't the first time you've made strong statements about having enough, only to inevitably make the next purchase. It's just fun for the rest of us to watch it play out. Plus, you said in May that "you can quote me on that." So I did. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here Future upgradeability of new Leica M's EVF. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted September 23, 2012 Share #42 Posted September 23, 2012 Correct -Rolo's post was about CMos. I don't think this EVF will cut it for long tele .Nor does Leica, they left them out of the list of supported lenses. And? I said I was not buying the M. And I am not. Which next purchase? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 23, 2012 Share #43 Posted September 23, 2012 For now, you're not. But you express regret that Leica didn't bring out a more modern EVF. I predict that they will bring out enough to satisfy you sometime well in advance of the decade that you predicted. Ice cream? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 23, 2012 Share #44 Posted September 23, 2012 Well, if truth be told, I think I might be using an NEX 7 for my long R lenses by that time... And not need the Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted September 23, 2012 Share #45 Posted September 23, 2012 With focus peaking being an extension of live view, how could you get one without the other?. Are you unfamiliar with Heads Up Display ("HUD") technology? I just don't see cutting edge technology in requiring the tack on of an EVF to see focus peaking in 2012 (really 2013). Maybe the next M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 23, 2012 Share #46 Posted September 23, 2012 Well, if truth be told, I think I might be using an NEX 7 for my long R lenses by that time... And not need the Leica. Ok, so possibly Sony EVIL instead of Leica. But, then the bet is that the M9, MM and EVIL (NEX 7) won't be all you'll want or need for the next decade, as you stated. I think I'm pretty much guaranteed an ice cream. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 23, 2012 Share #47 Posted September 23, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) My previous posts were about the M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 23, 2012 Share #48 Posted September 23, 2012 Well the May thread was about the MM and your lack of interest in the M (M10). But, that's irrelevant given the following quote, which I'll repeat... "I will keep the M9, get the MM, for the coming time explore the neglected (by me) universe of B&W travel and wildlife photography using my trusty Visoflex and get the Leica EVIL in due course without time pressure....that will be all I need to fill at least a decade." Clear as day. And my prediction, then and now, is that you will ultimately succumb to the M, even if it takes an improved version. And most certainly sooner than a decade. No weaseling out of my dessert. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
photomeme Posted September 23, 2012 Share #49 Posted September 23, 2012 And my prediction, then and now, is that you will ultimately succumb to the M, even if it takes an improved version. And most certainly sooner than a decade. There are plenty of us who: - delight in the M9 - feel enough intrigue about the MM (a released product with a lot of common, proven technology) to consider it - have seen enough misfires in the litany of CMOS cameras to be skeptical, including disappointing dynamic range and plasticky images and are nevertheless free enough of the 'cult of Leica' to acknowledge that: - the company hasn't yet shown the goods, - the M is heavy on techno gimickry of short currency in the marketplace, and - consider it might be better to skip the the first CMOS release again, if technical innovation is the story of the 'M', i wonder why in 2013 i can't have focus peaking as a Heads Up Display in the rangefinder optical? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 23, 2012 Share #50 Posted September 23, 2012 Well the May thread was about the MM and your lack of interest in the M (M10). But, that's irrelevant given the following quote, which I'll repeat... "I will keep the M9, get the MM, for the coming time explore the neglected (by me) universe of B&W travel and wildlife photography using my trusty Visoflex and get the Leica EVIL in due course without time pressure....that will be all I need to fill at least a decade." Clear as day. And my prediction, then and now, is that you will ultimately succumb to the M, even if it takes an improved version. And most certainly sooner than a decade. No weaseling out of my dessert. Jeff Don' worry, as it looks now, you'll starve. :If not - enjoy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted September 23, 2012 Share #51 Posted September 23, 2012 It's amazing that when one speaks about upgraded EVFs most people think of resolution. Yet it's not the resolution but other things that matter: Refresh rates, colour reproduction, practically unusable in low light situations, and if you do the mistake of using them, you destroy human night vision... On the other hand they do provide an alternative for when one has to look to the LCD rear panel under sunshine. The M has an amazing VF, the best VF you can find in a production camera, bar none. There was no need for that EVF except maybe for Macro shots and the questionable use of focus confirmation (but you can also do both with the LCD panel) I hate seeing that slot on an M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 23, 2012 Share #52 Posted September 23, 2012 Are you unfamiliar with Heads Up Display ("HUD") technology? I guess you are familiar with "HUD technology". If so, please explain just how "focus peaking" (which as Michael says is an extension of live view) could be integrated into the M range/viewfinder - or for that matter any reverse-Galilean telescope. If it were as simple as you claim, Fuji would have done it in the X100. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted September 23, 2012 Share #53 Posted September 23, 2012 again, if technical innovation is the story of the 'M', i wonder why in 2013 i can't have focus peaking as a Heads Up Display in the rangefinder optical? You can't have it because the viewfinder isn't accurate enough for the camera to know precisely what's going to be in the frame, and therefore can't know where to position any heads up focussing information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted September 23, 2012 Share #54 Posted September 23, 2012 evf2 is really good in every respect except that the focus dioptre dial moves easily when putting the camera with it attached, back into a bag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted September 23, 2012 Share #55 Posted September 23, 2012 Well, if truth be told. Ha ! "If the truth be told" !!? Youve shown that you couldn't lay straight in bed ! Just hold your hands up and say you've changed your mind, rather than sacrificing integrity. What price do you want for your MM ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 23, 2012 Share #56 Posted September 23, 2012 Everyone is entitled to a change of opinion. I might even decide that I will buy a digital M after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted September 23, 2012 Share #57 Posted September 23, 2012 That's the point; we all know people change minds. It's human nature and reflects our ability to assimilate new information and grow. The fun comes when people draw lines in the sand by publicly making emphatic statements that we know based on prior behaviors will not last. And then repeat the process. The behavior is common among US politicians; they make black/white comments (not about the MM) caught on camera or recording, then reverse them soon after. But, rather than just own up to the change, they weasel their way around the topic. And then do it again. The internet/digital/cell phone capture age makes it so easy to record, replay and have fun with the all too predictable twists. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nryn Posted September 23, 2012 Share #58 Posted September 23, 2012 I have this EVF and for my X2. I carry it around on the strap of the X2 case and use it in very rare situations, but in those situations it is invaluable. 1) when it is too bright out to see the screen on the back of the camera. This isn't an issue with a rangefinder. 2) when it's easier or advantageous to look down into a viewfinder The EVF does the job well enough that I don't complain about having spent the money on it. It's not my preferred way to shoot, but the X2 is not a rangefinder. On my M9, I have no other option and my Visoflex stays at home. I'm interested in an M and am happy the EVF I have already will work with both cameras. I don't expect it will in any way influence the primary ways in which I use the M, which is exactly like I used my M9, M8, M3, etc. Frankly, while I'm glad the M has liveview and an EVF option, I don't know why these two things are getting so much attention. It's still as much a rangefinder as you want it to be (which for most of us I'm guessing will be at least 95%). The more significant change to me is from CCD to CMOS. I'd be thrilled if they have, in fact, preserved the quality of output from the CCD on the CMOS sensor. I've always preferred CCDs, noise and all, for reasons I cannot express. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 23, 2012 Share #59 Posted September 23, 2012 Are you unfamiliar with Heads Up Display ("HUD") technology? Focus peaking and HUD don’t mix very well. I don’t think you’ve really thought this through, but if you have, Leica and some other camera manufacturers (Fuji comes to mind) would be all ears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 23, 2012 Share #60 Posted September 23, 2012 ... I don't know why these two things are getting so much attention. It's still as much a rangefinder as you want it to be (which for most of us I'm guessing will be at least 95%)... I think it is because some or many owners see this as the thin slippery slope of additional changes that may be coming. If some users, especially new ones are drawn to the EVF, it may eventually doom the rangefinder that many see as the heart of the camera's reason for existence. But I don't see how Leica had any choice in the matter as it is the only way they can modernize the system to expand the features and user base. The new Sony SLT cameras are transitioning from optical viewfinders in the SLR space. And numerous other cameras are live view/EVF only. This may be a foreshadowing of things to come for other brands too as the EVF technology improves and the economics of production favor an EVF over optical system. It may come down to user acceptance and should a lot of pros and enthusiasts give EVFs the thumbs up this technology will take over. Yes, some other users will feel screwed by their brands. At least Leica currently gives users a big choice. But somewhere along the line EVFs and focusing technology will improve and even M users may debate whether the optical viewfinder/rangefinder works better for them overall than does the EVF. I think Leica will try to keep the current rangefinder system alive as long as possible but I don't see how Leica can avoid being drawn into an overhaul of the entire system to incorporate auto focus somewhere in the future. At that point I'm not sure if such a camera will still incorporate a rangefinder. BTW, I went to the zoo a few days ago. I observed a lot of people using their DSLRs and most were using their live view LCD, not the optical viewfinder... even with their 70-300 lenses at 300mm outside in bright light. So I think many amateurs have already spoken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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