k-hawinkler Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share #81 Posted September 6, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is a full frame image, but from a M8. In this case we know of course that the effect was caused by the UV/IR filter in front of the lens. It was the reminiscence of this that caused me to post in the first place. Regards, LB Hi Lars, Many thanks. So full frame means the entire image OOC, not some pieces cut off in post, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 6, 2012 Posted September 6, 2012 Hi k-hawinkler, Take a look here LEICA SERIE 5.5 NDx1 13026 GERMANY. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k-hawinkler Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share #82 Posted September 7, 2012 Karl, I am away on holiday so I can't test to see if I can reproduce your results now (left that lens at home) but, when I get home I'll try . But, I do have the 280 Telyt APO 2.8 with me. It is a clear night so I'm going to go find the moon and try it with that lens. What is of interest is that the 2.8 has a removable front element (ND filter). so I can see if I get that ghost effect with the lens and then remove the ND filter protector. The ND filter is to protect the front element. In the booklet that comes with the lens it states so much and it gives very explicit directions how to clean the front element right down to the solution to mix and the motion to clean and the type of cloth. I'm off to find the moon... Hi Rick, Very interesting details indeed! In the German part of the forum I has asked the question whether somebody else had a similar experience with the 280/4? http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-r-leicaflex/253827-apo-telyt-r-1-4-280-a.html This gentleman http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2172918-post5.html replied about his 280/2.8 the following: " Den erwähnten Thread habe ich nicht ganz gelesen, das 4/280 besitze ich nicht, nur das 2,8er.Die erwähnten Artefakte kenne ich zum Teil schon aus Film-Zeiten. Der Abstand Reflex-Lichtquelle auf dem Bild je nach Filternutzung oder nicht lässt eigentlich nur einen Schluß zu: Licht wird von der Sensor-Oberfläche zurück auf das Filter und wieder auf den Sensor geworfen - oder eben auf die weiter entfernte Rücklinse. Das war früher bei unterschiedlichen Filmen unterschiedlich stark ausgeprägt, und bei verschiedenen Chip-Fabrikaten wird das auch nicht anders sein. "digital optimiert" heißt ja bei vielen Herstellern heutzutage vor allem: Besondere Vergütung der Rücklinsen. Aber: Wer mit nur 280mm direkt auf den Mond geht, muss üblicherweise für eine korrekte Belichtung derart kurze Zeiten wählen, dass schon viel EBV notwendig ist, um die Effekte sichtbar zu machen. Der Qualität der Linse tut das keinen Abbruch! Wer deswegen sein 4/280 nicht mehr mag, ich entsorge es gerne fachgerecht. Wäre nur interessant, wie sich hier das 5,6/1200 schlägt CLEAR SKIES Torsten " My translation of the sentence in blue: "The mentioned artifacts I already know in part from the film era." He then describes the same failure mode that was described in this thread and points out that different film types resulted in different strengths effects. So, I am really curious what you are finding out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 8, 2012 Share #83 Posted September 8, 2012 I'm home! I'll set up the tripod and take some pictures. Moonrise is in 4 hours at midnight. Hope I'm awake... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 8, 2012 Share #84 Posted September 8, 2012 Hi Lars, Many thanks. So full frame means the entire image OOC, not some pieces cut off in post, right? Yes, that's right. LB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share #85 Posted September 13, 2012 Yes, that's right. LB Hi Lars, Thank you so much. When I put the lines, trying to connect the flares with presumably the point light sources that caused them, in post #78 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2170872-post78.html I noticed that the apparent line-up is approximate but not exact. So, I wondered what such an analysis would yield when applied to your image in post #7 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2160723-post7.html. Here it is: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Again, very approximate, so additional factors must play a role, not captured by our simple initial model. What do you think with regards to this issue? Your feedback is always appreciated. Many thanks. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Again, very approximate, so additional factors must play a role, not captured by our simple initial model. What do you think with regards to this issue? Your feedback is always appreciated. Many thanks. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2111796'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share #86 Posted September 13, 2012 Next is an example of taking a picture of the same light source but from two different angles. Version #1. Tthe entire image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! A 100% crop of the flare. Zooming in, trying to identify the reflected point light source. Version #2. Now the same again from a different camera angle. The entire image. A 100% crop of the flare. Zooming in, trying to identify the reflected point light source. A correct and complete detailed analysis would also have to account for the shape, color, and other details of the flare itself. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! A 100% crop of the flare. Zooming in, trying to identify the reflected point light source. Version #2. Now the same again from a different camera angle. The entire image. A 100% crop of the flare. Zooming in, trying to identify the reflected point light source. A correct and complete detailed analysis would also have to account for the shape, color, and other details of the flare itself. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2111804'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share #87 Posted September 13, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now let's have a closer look at the two images in post #64 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2170075-post64.html. A crop from the first image. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! With supposedly connecting lines. Now a crop from the second image. With supposedly connecting lines. All I can say, these are 15 s exposures while the specular light sources - namely a car's headlights - moved. I made sure the crossing diagonal lines actually indicate the center of the image. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! With supposedly connecting lines. Now a crop from the second image. With supposedly connecting lines. All I can say, these are 15 s exposures while the specular light sources - namely a car's headlights - moved. I made sure the crossing diagonal lines actually indicate the center of the image. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2111809'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share #88 Posted September 13, 2012 To me the following is a better model. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I marked the center of the image (4 white lines cross) and also the spot (in yellow) where the mid-points of both the red and blue line coincide with a dot on the white horizontal line. One would have to analyze more examples to see what's part of the algorithm or what's an accidental coincidence. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I marked the center of the image (4 white lines cross) and also the spot (in yellow) where the mid-points of both the red and blue line coincide with a dot on the white horizontal line. One would have to analyze more examples to see what's part of the algorithm or what's an accidental coincidence. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2112178'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share #89 Posted September 13, 2012 Coming back to Lars' image, one gets an excellent alignment if one allows the two bundles to cross somewhere near the image middle. The crossing point divides a bundle in equal length halves. Here goes: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! So, an iterative approach might work to identify a specular light whose reflection causes a certain flare in an image. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! So, an iterative approach might work to identify a specular light whose reflection causes a certain flare in an image. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2112303'>More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 14, 2012 Share #90 Posted September 14, 2012 Well that was pretty obvious to me the first time I saw it. The reflective old man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 21, 2012 Share #91 Posted September 21, 2012 Karl, I tried to reproduce your ghost effect by sooting the moon. I was unable to get the reflection no mater how I tried. I even shot some night shots of distant lights and couldn't get the ghost effect. In LR4 I increased the exposure and could not uncover ghosts no matter how far off center the lights were or how much I tried to connect the dots across the center line of the image. I shot you exact exposures and everything else. I used the 5D and the Telyt-R-APO 280/4. The most obvious difference between our shots seems to be the fact that you used the Sony. I would suggest that maybe there is a difference of the reflective strength of the image off the sensor(reflection). I suspect the Sony has a weaker AR coat. I don't think that it is completely the lens. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2120338'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share #92 Posted September 21, 2012 Hi Rick, Many thanks. Very interesting. I am convinced reflectivity of the sensor plays an important role. Too bad I can't use my Nikon cameras with the lens. It will be interesting to see how the Leica M will handle that situation. I also shot the moon tonight with the NEX-7, APO 280/4 and APO-Extender 1.4x. This is a 100% crop from an OOC JPG: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Thanks again for checking this out. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Thanks again for checking this out. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2120390'>More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 21, 2012 Share #93 Posted September 21, 2012 Nice shot. I have one just like that I took tonight with the APO extender 1.4x. The one I posted was for Karl to show the overexposed version from LR4 that makes the ghost images more apparent. It is not an example of good photography, just an example to demonstrate no ghost image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share #94 Posted September 22, 2012 Here is a shot from tonight, taken with Sony NEX-5N + APO-Telyt-R 1:4/280, ISO=100, f=4, 1/20 s. In CS6 exposure=+5, clarity=+75. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2121431'>More sharing options...
Alon Posted October 3, 2012 Share #95 Posted October 3, 2012 Interesting puzzle. May I ask how you are mounting the 280/4 on your Sony Nex-7? The ghosting and reflection might have a very simple solution. I need to know which mount you are using? More importantly, did you remove the black shroud? Did you try your 280/4 on another camera body? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share #96 Posted October 4, 2012 Welcome to the forum! Interesting puzzle.May I ask how you are mounting the 280/4 on your Sony Nex-7? Please, let me count the ways: • NOVOFLEX NEX/LER • FOTODIOX LEICA R to NEX • NOVOFLEX NEX/LEM + NOVOFLEX LEM/LER • FOTODIOX PRO LEICA M-Sony + FOTODIOX LR-LM • FOTODIOX LEICA M - NEX + FOTODIOX LR-LM • HAWK's FACTORY L-M MH TO E + FOTODIOX LR-LM The ghosting and reflection might have a very simple solution. That would be great. What is it? I need to know which mount you are using?More importantly, did you remove the black shroud? No, it still seems to be there. Did you try your 280/4 on another camera body? So far I have tried: • Sony NEX-7 • Sony NEX-5N • Leica M9 Here is an image taken with the M9 + M-R adapter + APO 1:4/280 + UV filter. I intentionally overexposed the moon. This is an OOC JPG, one spot removed, otherwise not processed, only reduced in size: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! One can clearly see two reflections, one very strong one at the bottom, a much weaker one slightly higher and just to the left. The mountains are the Sangre de Cristos. The lights are from a passing helicopter. BTW, the moon was in focus, as can be seen from this properly exposed OOC JPG image, same setup: Thanks for your feedback. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! One can clearly see two reflections, one very strong one at the bottom, a much weaker one slightly higher and just to the left. The mountains are the Sangre de Cristos. The lights are from a passing helicopter. BTW, the moon was in focus, as can be seen from this properly exposed OOC JPG image, same setup: Thanks for your feedback. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2132477'>More sharing options...
Alon Posted October 4, 2012 Share #97 Posted October 4, 2012 Thank you for the welcome. I do not have any Nex experience as my equipment is Nikon. My take on it is 2 folds: 1- There is an inherent fault in the lens itself which can only be acsertained by Solms. 2- The reason I mentioned the shroud and the mount is because there could be some strenuous external light bouncing on the mounts in infinite amount which is finding it's way into the focal beam. This is pure conjuncture as simlar 280/4 has developed unwanted flare when either the mounts were not a perfect match or an internal screw or exposed metal showed it's reflection. As a long shot can you black tape the lens part mounted on the body as tight as you can and take a test shot? Or put a strong snoot light aimed at the mount, in other words, flood the mount with light and take a picture and compare both cases with flooded light and without on the same subject. Same double test shot with the taped lens mount and without. Also make sure no exposed metal is showing inside the lens foot. In case it does show a difference, then your mounts are the culprits. As a final test, mount the lens on a R camera and check whether the problem persists? These test will only prove that the lens is OK and the mounts are not. If the mounts are OK then the last resort is send back to Solms. I hope my post make any sense as you have nothing to loose and all to gain. On a final note, I did challenge couple of people using the lens on Nikon and Canon and I did shoot a test shot smack into the sun with no flare whatsoever! I even used Marbles to get any refections to no avail! The 280/4 is one of my prefered lenses although I am not using it as much as I would like and it is really one of the best if not the best lens across all brands. Thank you. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2132869'>More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share #98 Posted November 5, 2012 Well, the APO-Telyt-R 1:4/280 isn't the only lens I get reflections with. Here is an example of the Sony NEX-7 + APO-Telyt-R 1:3.4/180. The reflection is visible in the lower left quadrant. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! With the flick of the wrist one can make it disappear into the bright sky above. One can also see this clearlyl in the EVF. Of course, the first image has the framing I wanted. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! With the flick of the wrist one can make it disappear into the bright sky above. One can also see this clearlyl in the EVF. Of course, the first image has the framing I wanted. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186459-leica-serie-55-ndx1-13026-germany/?do=findComment&comment=2158981'>More sharing options...
01af Posted November 5, 2012 Share #99 Posted November 5, 2012 What to do next to analyze the problem further? You never noticed this phenomenon before!? All lenses do this. And the sensor has nothing to do with it; it will happen on film just as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share #100 Posted November 5, 2012 You never noticed this phenomenon before!? All lenses do this. And the sensor has nothing to do with it; it will happen on film just as well. Thanks. That's good to know. So, what is the mechanism, if you don't mind me asking? However, if you look at post #3 and #6 there definitely is a different behavior. Could you please be more specific what you mean by this in the sentence: All lenses do this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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