tomasis7 Posted August 24, 2012 Share #21 Posted August 24, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Brilliant marketing, huh? Im not sure that Kodak will get enough money to clear off Chapter 11 (several hundred millions $) to sell unprofitable parts of business while holding on the profitable ones, thus separating manufacturing faculties. I see no logics there. Maybe it is a desperate move. Lets wait when the dust clears off. Honestly I prefer that Trix, Tmax (whole BW line) sells off to small company as Adox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 24, 2012 Posted August 24, 2012 Hi tomasis7, Take a look here Kodak to sell its Film and Paper business [merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tomasis7 Posted August 24, 2012 Share #22 Posted August 24, 2012 Andy Barton, wow. Good to know! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted August 24, 2012 Share #23 Posted August 24, 2012 Irony is that this is what I hoped for when Kodak disintegrated. But naturally they seem to be going into the selloff in a half-arsed and clumsy manner - guaranteed to mess up the whole process. Oh well - not with a bang but a whimper. Now I wish I'd switched to film a whole lot earlier. Years wasted using digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 24, 2012 Share #24 Posted August 24, 2012 There will still be lots of other film to use. It would be really interesting to see the books on Tri-X. Subject to that, what we really need are some photographically-passionate multi-millionaires to put together a consortium to buy the line and the brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 24, 2012 Share #25 Posted August 24, 2012 BJP Article Kodak to sell off film division [uPDATE] - British Journal of Photography Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 24, 2012 Share #26 Posted August 24, 2012 THIS NEWS WAS IN THREE SEPERATE THREADS, SO I HAVE MERGED THEM ALL INTO ONE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted August 24, 2012 Share #27 Posted August 24, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Andy -- first I want to thank you for pulling the threads together. Good to have everyone vent, cajole and opine in one place. As for Kodak, they are making a dumb decision selling off the film and thinking they will survive making printers -- a group that is not yet turning a profit according to the WSJ this morning. If they think printers make sense, look at HP and its problems. When you need to raise cash in a hurry, you don't necessarily sell what you want to sell but what you can sell. The bankruptcy judge and Kodak recognize that they can raise sufficient cash by selling off the film group. This means, in turn, that the group earns a profit and whomever buys the group will be looking to sustain the business and try to grow it. No one is going to buy it and shut it down. A key, to me, in the financing terms will be whether and what Kodak will want to earn from the new owners for film patents, keeping the Kodak name and the copyrighted yellow box. I am particularly sorry to see all this happen, especially since I have never found color film I liked more that Kodak color. My bw preference is Ilford. Perhaps the workers can orgainze a buyout. We will see. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiMPLiFY Posted August 24, 2012 Share #28 Posted August 24, 2012 Can anyone guess what this will do to the price of Tri-X in the next few months? Right now it's selling for $3.99 USD and I'd like to stock my freezer with 10 bricks if there will be a price increase. I just counted and I have about 20 rolls left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 24, 2012 Share #29 Posted August 24, 2012 It won't get any cheaper, that's for sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted August 24, 2012 Share #30 Posted August 24, 2012 Any company that would stop production of thier iconic product, Kodachrome, would certainly stop production of TRI-X, thier other iconic product. Me, I switched to Fuji color reversal films, have about a 100 rolls of T-MAX 400 and haven't purchased a Koak product since the demise of Kodachrome. Hasn't affected me in the least.-Dick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 24, 2012 Share #31 Posted August 24, 2012 There were environmental as well as commercial reasons why they stopped selling Kodachrome. I wonder how many rolls of Tri-X they sold, compared with Kodachrome, just before they decided to cease production of the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted August 24, 2012 Share #32 Posted August 24, 2012 they are certainly selling enough, otherwise it wouldn't be up for sale. being in the financial markets, i can tell you from experience when trouble hits and people need to raise cash they sell what's liquid and there is a bid -- not the dogs in the portfolio they wish they never owned. same is true for kodak. how much would you bid for a printer vs a storied portfolio of film where, it seems to me, its slide has seemed to find its bottom? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted August 24, 2012 Share #33 Posted August 24, 2012 IT is the right move .. not for Kodak, but for photographers. Itself Kodak is holding on printing business and eventually fill Chapter 11 again then film line is saved with another Kodak brand. It is a way to get off catastrophical management with Wall Street mentality and let them fall off with their view that they do right with their decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 24, 2012 Share #34 Posted August 24, 2012 Do they sell off the motion picture division as well? Combined with the still photography business? I can hardly imagine separating these two divisions. I see their survival as crucial, their negative films are second to none and they still improve them! And if remember correctly, this business is still profitable!? Well, wall-street mentality within the management ruins every company... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveler_101 Posted August 24, 2012 Share #35 Posted August 24, 2012 they are certainly selling enough, otherwise it wouldn't be up for sale. being in the financial markets, I can tell you from experience when trouble hits and people need to raise cash they sell what's liquid and there is a bid -- not the dogs in the portfolio they wish they never owned. same is true for kodak. how much would you bid for a printer vs a storied portfolio of film where, it seems to me, its slide has seemed to find its bottom? Quite possibly true, but the question for a potential buyer is what kind of business model will work to carry this "storied portfolio of film" into the future? tomasis7 says he "prefer(s) that Trix, Tmax (whole BW line) sells off to small company as Adox." So I looked up ADOX. Here is what their website says about the company today: "The original ADOX Dr. Schleussner Fotowerke do not exist anymore. ADOX Fotowerke GmbH Bad Saarow carries on the tradition of the ADOX brand. We manufacture fibre base papers, 35mm films, rollfilms, sheetfilms, Super 8 moovie films, photochemistry and more. Our goal is to keep a full range of photochemical products in a small scale manufacturing process allive. In 2009 we opened up the 'worlds smallest photochemical factory' in Bad Saarow. ADOX Fotowerke GmbH is working under low automatisation with a large degreee of manual work. This enables us to be very flexible and manufacture many different types of films and papers without much overhead and fixed costs. Our workflow today is not far away form the original ADOX Dr. C. Schleussner Fotowerke which also used similar machines in their times, but we are now much smaller." Kodak's production facilities and processes are on the level of mass industrialization. To survive they will have to produce for niche markets. It will be profitable: film prices around the world are going to increase for those of us who wish to continue with our hobby; there will be strong demand despite the prices as a new generation comes to understand the value of film photography. Kodak film can be made profitable, but it will take capital and determination to do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larcomb Posted August 24, 2012 Share #36 Posted August 24, 2012 Fuck Sorry for the French, but for once I think it's justified - I see swearing as an emotional release. I hope they do sell the line to DuPont or 3M or somebody stable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted August 24, 2012 Share #37 Posted August 24, 2012 traveler_101 -- you are correct, which is why the film business will likely get sold at a big enough discount to make the forward earnings yield attractive to the buyer. there is some price where it makes sense for someone, dupont, 3m (used to make magnetic tape for recording maybe they still do). what is not clear from the stories to date is what Kodak will or will not charge for its patents, iconic name, and yellow box. everything is negotiable and in their situation they will likely get less than a fair price but fair enough for the buyer to earn a reasonable return for what is a small and increasingly niche market. it is interesting, however, that the article made mention of the consumer products division (film) but not the motion picture film (a different division i suppose). not sure how that works, but it will be in the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 24, 2012 Share #38 Posted August 24, 2012 Kodak's production facilities and processes are on the level of mass industrialization. To survive they will have to produce for niche markets. It will be profitable: film prices around the world are going to increase for those of us who wish to continue with our hobby; there will be strong demand despite the prices as a new generation comes to understand the value of film photography. Kodak film can be made profitable, but it will take capital and determination to do that. It is my understanding that Kodak's chemical and coating operations can not be scaled back for small volume production. I think the evidence for this is pretty clear as Kodak would already have done this if it were practical... instead of dropping so many products. So what you said above is true that it would take capital and determination to turn it into a small scale operation targeting niche markets. Why anyone would buy Kodak's facilities if this is their goal is not clear to me. It seems to me that you are making an assumption that somewhere there is a well thought through and informed business plan showing this would be profitable. However this seems in conflict with your opinion that there will be strong demand. E.g. if the demand is so strong and will grow with a new generation, why would production need to be scaled back and targeted to a niche market? And the idea that increased film prices will lead to greater demand is wishful thinking in my opinion. As prices go up demand will fall. Yes, it might eventually just become a plaything for the well to do hobbyist at that point. But practical uses for film will be long gone by then and if film exists at all the market will be tiny if the price is too high. I bet there is not a serious investor on this planet who would spend funds and/or raise more funds from others based on the idea that there will be a new generation of film users that will keep film sales steady let alone cause them to increase. Since no one has been lining up to buy the Kodak film and paper division, I think the title of this thread should be changed to "Kodak to try to sell its Film and Paper business." Should it actually get purchased we will have a better idea of what the buyer plans to do with it. DuPont and 3M exited the film and paper business decades ago. Well 3M still makes "Photographic Tape" which is black opaque masking tape. And photographic spray adhesives. Now if Kodak had used its chemists, facilities, and acquisitions to make corn and other seeds, they'd be a player today. That is what DuPont did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchalfon Posted August 24, 2012 Share #39 Posted August 24, 2012 As a humble spectator of this situation, i see it has been years and years since Kodak had any decent idea implemented. their choices had been the worst and the company is now obviously in this terrible shape. I don't know if they make money selling pro films or not. it does not matter. all i know is they have few chances of doing something right. simply because even thought they probably still have brilliant people working inside the company, you need to remember that the bosses are probably not motivated by doing it right. they are motivated by the possibility of having their bonuses. that's it. nothing about creating a company, saving jobs or do something better. bonuses are a financial combination. this is what Kodak's management seems trying to achieve. think about all the financial crisis, how banks needed to be supported by government money but still their top executives kept their pay. it is awful to say, but it has nothing to do with truth, passion, entrepreneurship and ultimately nothing to do with photography anymore. sad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted August 24, 2012 Share #40 Posted August 24, 2012 How to make a small fortune - start with a large one and buy Kodak's film division... (to paraphrase a rather more well-know adage). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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