To Leica, Please Answer This...!!!

[scho]

Larry,

 

Why do you think any of us think Leica is engaged in some sinister conspiracy of deception? I certainly don't. I am concerned because over the last 3 months there have been numerous failures reported by credible members that have been strong Leica proponents and yet when they have gotten their cameras back not a word on what caused the failure. Even individuals like Sean haven't been able to report what failed on their camera. Has it been the same thing in each camera, has it been more than one thing, etc. To use an analogy with all of its inherent dangers, when I have taken my car in for a malfunction, the repair statement (even when covered under warranty) itemizes the work that was done and the parts that were replaced. Leica has chosen not to reveal this information which might lead some to believe that they are hiding something.

 

I don't know if you own an M8 or not but if you do, then you should be empathetic to anyone that has plunked down their hard earned cash with the reasonable expectation that they would have a superior and reliable camera.

 

Have any of these "sudden death" cameras actually been repaired by Leica or have they just been replacing faulty cameras?

[mikelc]

..ditto here as well...this forum which for the most part does nothing but champion leica and the m8 (it's what got me to buy one) seems to be the right place to air these anxious concerns so it would make good business sense to me that leica should address the issue whether it's here or on their site...

 

it's all about perception..i got my m8 in early feb the day it arrieved at 17th photo in nyc.

..so far its been to Greece and through shooting in 2 snowstorms and so far its performed without a glitch (accept for the magenta issue of course) so i shouldn't be alt all concerned but hearing how many people here have had these problems has me holding my breath every time i turn it on though the reality is that it may be a very small # of cameras that have been affected by this but it 'seems' as if it is happening to everyone which of course it isn't....

 

...at the end of the month i'm off to italy withthe m8 and i don't want to be anxiuos all the time there about this....my ids11 which i sold to buy this was a workhouse that i never gave a performance worry about.,,it just seems reasonalble to have leica clarify this a bit to allieviate all the anxiety this issue seems to be causing

[BillBrittain]

I regretfully subscribe to this request. My M8 worked fine for three months. Then today while I was shooting my grandchildren on a ski hill (+5C) it just stopped and hung there. The display in the finder was on and the red light on the back was blinking. It would not switch off, even when I took out the battery. I mean the minute I put it back, it continued. Then I put it under my jacket and ten minutes later - and ever since - it worked just fine. Odd. Not a tragedy - but some open communication would be appreciated. It would help a lot.

 

You're describing my nightmare George. Did you have the 1.092 firmware installed?

[barjohn]

Have any of these "sudden death" cameras actually been repaired by Leica or have they just been replacing faulty cameras?

 

Yes, several have had their cameras repaired and returned but none seems to be able to post what leica did to fix the problem.

[ho_co]

Personal opinion: This thread is completely off base.

 

We don't know whether the 'sudden death' thing is a single item or multiple items. Several descriptions have been quite similar, others quite different--Sean's, for example, killed the camera and seemed to involve static electricity, Nick's was repeated and apparently didn't.

 

Are you grouping both of those when you ask for an answer? In other words, are you sure you know what you're talking about?

 

How dumb to ask in a public forum whether Leica is working on the problem! Leica wants the camera to work, and they are working on it.

 

[just noticed Andy Piper's http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/18742-m8-breakdown-still-examining-possibilities.html, posted two hours BEFORE you posted your whine, Alexander: "Stefan Daniel said that the shut-down issue is very frustrating because it is so intermittent - Leica has not yet been able to track down a common element among the date of manufacture, battery condition, on/off switch failures, etc."]

 

Look how stupid the question is: "Leica, are you working on what I think is one problem but might be several?" What answer do you expect? Perhaps, "No, we've gone on to work on the R10; so far, fewer than 8 percent of M8s have had this problem so we don't think it's an issue; we fix the cameras when they come in, and if we determine that it is a systemic defect, we might or might not do something about it, depending on our finances and how much time the R10 is taking." Get real!

 

How useless to waste their time with a post here--"Dear Leica, I learned that my wumpus has green fungus in it, and that this specific fungus comes only from Solms, so I demand to know whether you'll start using anti-fungal agents in future wumpora." Grow up!

 

You want to "demand" an answer of Leica? Consider what you're saying and you'll see how ridiculous that term is.

 

The wrong person calls you or emails you back? Well, then--"demand" to speak to the 'correct' person. But with a dumb question like this, who do you think is this 'correct' person? The chief engineer or the night watchman?

 

Yes, if there's a problem, present Leica with details and let them handle it. Don't ask the pope to speak ex cathedra on the topic.

 

The whole tone of "I demand from Leica" and "Others want to know" is vulgar. The answer is obvious: They will fix the problem.

 

You say: Will I ever be able to trust the camera? Well, baby, that's up to you. Most people have never had the problems you're worried about. There is evidence that some of those problems have been fixed in firmware 1.092. So now you decide. You don't want to trust it? Leave it home. You figure it's worth trusting until you learn something different? Use it.

 

"The internet has changed everything." Yes, it has made us all into whinging cry-babies.

 

Andy, this thread has no usefulness to Leica or to anyone else. Delete this post, lock the thread, move it under "Pictures of my boring grandparents," but do something.

 

Please, guys! Wake up!

 

And I hope you can enjoy reading this post as much as I did posting it. If you read it, it's pretty funny! And I am calmer now, thank goodness!

 

--HC

[like_no_other]

Personal opinion--

This request is completely off base.

 

We don't know whether the 'sudden death' thing is a single item or multiple items. Several descriptions have been quite similar, others quite different--Sean's, for example, killed the camera and seemed to involve static electricity, Nick's was repeated and apparently didn't.

 

Are you grouping both of those when you ask for an answer? In other words, are you sure you know what you're talking about?

 

How dumb to ask in a public forum whether Leica is working on the problem? Leica wants the camera to work, and they are working on it.

 

Look how stupid the question is: "Leica, are you working on what I think is one problem but might be several?" What answer do you expect? Perhaps, "No, we've gone on to work on the R10; so far, fewer than 8 percent of M8s have had this problem so we don't think it's an issue; we fix the cameras when they come in, and if we determine that it is a systemic defect, we might or might not do something about it, depending on our finances and how much time the R10 is taking." Get real!

 

How useless to waste their time with a post here--"Dear Leica, I learned that my wumpus has green fungus in it, and that this specific fungus comes only from Solms, so I demand to know whether you'll start using anti-fungal agents in future wumpora." Grow up!

 

You want to "demand" an answer of Leica? Consider what you're saying and you'll see how ridiculous that term is.

 

The wrong person calls you or emails you back? Well, then--"demand" to speak to the 'correct' person.

 

Yes, if there's a problem, present Leica with details and let them handle it. Don't ask the pope to speak ex cathedra on the topic.

 

The whole tone of "I demand from Leica" and "Others want to know" is vulgar. The answer is obvious: They will fix the problem.

 

You say: Will I ever be able to trust the camera? Well, baby, that's up to you. Most people have never had the problems you're worried about. There is evidence that some of those problems have been fixed in firmware 1.092. So now you decide. You don't want to trust it? Leave it home. You figure it's worth trusting until you learn something different? Use it.

 

"The internet has changed everything." Yes, it has made us all into whinging cry-babies.

 

Andy, this thread has no meaning to Leica or to anyone else. Delete this post, lock the thread, move it under "Pictures of my boring grandparents," but do something.

 

Please, guys! Wake up!

 

--HC

 

Sounds like you are the last weapon of Leica.

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(just kidding, don't take it personal)

[ho_co]

Sounds like you are the last weapon of Leica.

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(just kidding, don't take it personal)

Philip--

After I've been so insulting to everyone in the thread, you actually bother to say "don't take it personal"? That's kind of you.

 

Obviously, the idea that Leica wouldn't be aware of the problem got to me. And I went childishly ballistic.

 

I apologize to everyone whom I offended above, but I still think you're crazy!

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And no, I'm no last weapon. It's just that since I'm still waiting for my M8, I don't have anything to complain about.

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Thanks for the courtesy of your response!

 

--HC

[Guest stnami]

And no, I'm no last weapon. It's just that since I'm still waiting for my M8, I don't have anything to complain about

... I like that..

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[BillBrittain]

Philip--

After I've been so insulting to everyone in the thread, you actually bother to say "don't take it personal"? That's kind of you.

 

Obviously, the idea that Leica wouldn't be aware of the problem got to me. And I went childishly ballistic.

 

I apologize to everyone whom I offended above, but I still think you're crazy!

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And no, I'm no last weapon. It's just that since I'm still waiting for my M8, I don't have anything to complain about.

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Thanks for the courtesy of your response!

 

--HC

 

I'm still trying to scrape the fungus off my wumpus

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[blakley]

Email Customer Services at Leica with specific issues.

 

A public forum is not the place for responses, as I am sure you understand.

 

I obviously don't want to try to dictate communications policies to Leica or administrative policies to the moderators, but many people these days feel that a public forum is EXACTLY the place for responses to issues like these.

 

When corporate culture clashes with Internet culture, both the company and its customers can lose, as the vociferous conversation about the M8 on the Internet has already illustrated. More open communications can help turn potential problems into opportunities. The phenomenon is described very well here: the cluetrain manifesto

[hankg]

User forums are a perfectly appropriate place for users to compare notes and make their concerns known to a company. Leica does not have to reply via this forum, they may choose a letter to customers or a press release, the mode of response is not that important. Forums like this are an invaluable resource for a business and there has been much in the way of useful information and first adopter beta testing made available to both the user community and Leica here.

 

Only Leica has an overview of the actual percentage of cameras with problems and it would behoove them to get out in front of the story and put the real reported problems in perspective. Audi lost a decade in the USA when it failed to get out in front of the "unintended acceleration" story. Unlike dead M8's which actually have problems the Audi "problem" was actually user error. None the less it completely destroyed Audi's business in the US.

 

The concerns expressed by users and potential users are legitimate and warrant some sort of ongoing dialogue by Leica. It is not acceptable having users expecting their cameras to blow up on them at any given moment or having users who love the camera throwing in the towel because they percieve Leica as not having a handle on the situation.

[Guest stnami]

Those that subscribe to other Leica forums ie rangefinder and DPR all the same amount breakdowns occuring there? What about the German forum here?

[Lode]

I don't own a M8, but I want to buy one, but I'd like to buy a reliable camera. Is something wrong with that?

At the moment the camera is not reliable. How can I be sure when it will be?

I understand Leica will not, and cannot answer in this forum as it is not a normal policy.

But can't they make some statement on their website?

 

Lode

[colorflow]

Try phoning them.

 

Well my M8 died of this sudden death. My emails went unanswered and the answer when I called was a terse "never heard of this problem before". So my early M8 is on its way to Solms for what I expect to be a prolonged stay.

 

Alan

[rosuna]

I agree with you HC.

[Guest sirvine]

I'm sure responding to posts here is not the best use of their time. I have followed what feels like nine thousand nine hundred and ninety times this same hysterical drama for every product release of Apple in the apple.com forums for many years now. Everyone feels that they aren't getting enough attention to their demands. Everyone wants answers yesterday. It gets a little tiresome. I've been the guy with the broken whatsit that I really, really needed to work, and it's no fun for sure, but you aren't going to get much online except the sympathy of your fellow consumers.

 

For those of you who talk about companies that are leading the way in using online forums to react to customer issues, can you give some examples? I am a little skeptical, given the inherent dangers of such a business practice. In my experience, serious companies give serious consideration to every single word that is uttered in their name or under their letterhead. I wouldn't begrudge them for doing so--it is in many ways a matter of survival, esp. in consumer-friendly markets like those in continental Europe.

[george +]

Bill, yes, I have 1.092 installed. But my camera is an early November unmodified one.

 

And it will not go to Solms (not that Leica ever bothered to call me - and I registered on December 6) until I am certain that they know what causes these things and how to fix them. And write about it. Which is what we are asking for.

 

In summary; I do not consider this tragic - yet. A little inconvenience which can hopefully be ironed out. But a bit more openness could help. Please?

[barjohn]

I'm sure responding to posts here is not the best use of their time. I have followed what feels like nine thousand nine hundred and ninety times this same hysterical drama for every product release of Apple in the apple.com forums for many years now. Everyone feels that they aren't getting enough attention to their demands. Everyone wants answers yesterday. It gets a little tiresome. I've been the guy with the broken whatsit that I really, really needed to work, and it's no fun for sure, but you aren't going to get much online except the sympathy of your fellow consumers.

 

For those of you who talk about companies that are leading the way in using online forums to react to customer issues, can you give some examples? I am a little skeptical, given the inherent dangers of such a business practice. In my experience, serious companies give serious consideration to every single word that is uttered in their name or under their letterhead. I wouldn't begrudge them for doing so--it is in many ways a matter of survival, esp. in consumer-friendly markets like those in continental Europe.

 

I have illustrated this before, but will do so again. Hublot is a small production Swiss watch company (production less than 15,000 pieces per year). Hublot waches cost upwards of $8,000 and more typically in the $15,000 to $25,000 range. They introduced a new, and rdical by Swiss standards, watch called the Big Bang. It was a radical departure from Swiss tradition in that the case is a sandwitch of ceramic and precious metals. It is THE hot watch among watch conisiuers. The CEO of the company was formerly the CEO/president of another small Swiss watch maker called Blancpain. He took it from near bankruptcy into a thriving company. When he came to Hublot it was also going down hill. It was not making inroads against the big competitors like Rolex (mass produced 500K watches per year) or Patek Phillip, the Rolls Royce of watches. He has since turned the company around into a viable and growing business. He personally takes an interest in every customer and regularly posts on the forum called Home Page - TimeZone in the Hublot section. I will show you a few examples of threads and you will see what a savy marketer does with the Internet.

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[hankg]

I'm sure responding to posts here is not the best use of their time.

 

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that they respond to forum posts or participate in this forum. Companies that use venues like this for feedback for the most part do not participate in the online discussions but use it as a source for intelligence about their customers and respond in whatever way is appropriate.

 

We are past the trolls about lack of full frame sensoes, IR filters being ridiculous, etc., etc. When many of the users on the forum start to experience problems with their cameras that is not hysteria it's a real cause for concern. I'm sure Leica is already devoting it's full resources to resolving problems but Leica should also formulate some communications strategy as customers need real information upon which to base decisions and understand what they can and cannot expect.

[ho_co]

I rather blew my stack above, so you know my feeling. (I'm actually surprised that someone read far enough to check for wumpus fungus.

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-- Thanks, Bill!)

 

But there is some benefit in exchanging such information here.

 

One reason no one discovered the magenta/IR issue before the camera shipped was that Leica had told all the early reviewers that color rendition wasn't finalized, so don't bother to comment on that topic. If Leica hadn't told the reviewers not to worry about funny color, the problem *might* have been found sooner.

 

If Leica had told us, "Now there are some unexpected shutdown problems that we're still working on, so don't bother telling us about them," we might have thought the problem was under control and not worried about it; but it's clearly not under control.

 

As the flames clear the cobwebs from my head, maybe what I'm saying is that Leica knows they've got a problem; they probably don't read everything on the forum; and the way we could help is to try to gather more information on whose camera goes down under what conditions. In other words, it's information Leica needs, not complaints.

 

I guess it's rather like the backseat driver saying "I told you we shouldn't go this way" while you're changing the tire. S/he may be right, but the comment isn't helpful at the moment.

 

I say let's not panic, they'll get it taken care of; but it won't be tomorrow, unfortunately.

 

Oh--and I've never seen a Leica repair sheet that says anything much more specific than "repaired to factory specifications." Even when they know the problem and have fixed the new production it will still be several years before the cause leaks to us. (And even then, they're not going to say "replaced faulty Radio Shack capacitor."

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)

 

By the way--Maybe we should develop two terms here:

"Sudden Death Syndrome" for those cameras that need to be shipped off to get them working again; and

"Near Death Experience" for those that pass out but can be revived by some means.

 

--HC