Yet Another Breakdown. Enough.

[eronald]

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Can someone here mail me the old old 0.9 firmware please ? via you Sendit.com - Buy DVDs, Games & Electronics - FREE UK & Ireland Delivery

 

edmundronald at gmail dot com

 

Thank you very much.

 

Edmund

[pascal_meheut]

Can someone here mail me the old old 0.9 firmware please ? via you Sendit.com - Buy DVDs, Games & Electronics - FREE UK & Ireland Delivery

 

edmundronald at gmail dot com

 

Thank you very much.

 

Edmund

 

Sent. Using yousendit.com and not sendit.com

[jrc]

The variability and strange operational failures makes me think the problem could well be static induced/damage, especially after reading about the poor electrical connectivity between the case components (Mark's measurements I think). If this is the situation and unless it's rectified we could all expect problems in the future.

 

I'd be a lot happier if there was a factual statement from Leica concerning these problems.

 

Bob.

 

I agree -- but I think it's also possible that there's a problem in the on/switch, shutter release, battery/power assembly, and it might be something quite simple. The variability we see in symptoms might be caused by some mechanical glitch, or some power variability or surge, that scrambles the firmware, in the same way such problems affect a computer. The thing that makes me wonder about the static is that a couple of reports have come from people who seem to be in damper, less-static prone areas.

 

As for Leica, they've now dealt with many of these cases of Sudden Camera Death, and there seems to me to be three possibilities:

 

1) They know what's causing it, and it's a design or assembly problem, and they can fix it, but they don't want another huge surge of cameras sent for repairs, when the cameras are still functioning -- in other words, they're using the random occurrence of the fault to pace their repair service.

 

2) The problem is caused by static discharges, which strikes randomly, and requires that each camera be fixed individually according to each individual fault. (A static discharge may effect any one of a number of electronic components, and they have to tear everything apart to see which one it is.)

 

3. There is no one cause, except an overall faulty design combined with poor QC, so again, they have to track down each individual fault and try to repair it by hand.

 

If it's (3), we're in trouble. If it's (2) it would be good if they were to report this, so that we could take some anti-static precautions in high-static situations. Where I live, for example, the winter months always have high static. The rest of the year, we're okay...I wouldn't like it, but I might be able to work around the problem with some extra care, and the engineers of this forum might even be able to suggest some home-brew remedies.

 

If it's (1), then I can understand why they haven't been saying much, but I think it's the wrong tactic. They could come up with a better PR position than silence, that would also reassure their customers.

 

 

JC

[eronald]

Sent. Using yousendit.com and not sendit.com

 

Thank you Pascal. And yes, I must have mistyped yousendit.com -

 

Edmund

[jaapv]

Just sent you one through yousendit as a backup in case Pascal's doesn't get through.

[eronald]

If it's (1), then I can understand why they haven't been saying much, but I think it's the wrong tactic. They could come up with a better PR position than silence, that would also reassure their customers.

 

JC

 

I FOUND IT ! I FOUND IT ! Here is the sound an ostrich makes:

 

http://www.wildcam.com/images/guides/sounds/38.wav

 

Except maybe it can't make it when its head is stuck i the sand !

 

Edmund

[geoffreyg]

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I agree -- but I think it's also possible that there's a problem in the on/switch, shutter release, battery/power assembly, and it might be something quite simple. The variability we see in symptoms might be caused by some mechanical glitch, or some power variability or surge, that scrambles the firmware, in the same way such problems affect a computer. The thing that makes me wonder about the static is that a couple of reports have come from people who seem to be in damper, less-static prone areas.

 

As for Leica, they've now dealt with many of these cases of Sudden Camera Death, and there seems to me to be three possibilities:

 

1) They know what's causing it, and it's a design or assembly problem, and they can fix it, but they don't want another huge surge of cameras sent for repairs, when the cameras are still functioning -- in other words, they're using the random occurrence of the fault to pace their repair service.

 

2) The problem is caused by static discharges, which strikes randomly, and requires that each camera be fixed individually according to each individual fault. (A static discharge may effect any one of a number of electronic components, and they have to tear everything apart to see which one it is.)

 

3. There is no one cause, except an overall faulty design combined with poor QC, so again, they have to track down each individual fault and try to repair it by hand.

 

If it's (3), we're in trouble. If it's (2) it would be good if they were to report this, so that we could take some anti-static precautions in high-static situations. Where I live, for example, the winter months always have high static. The rest of the year, we're okay...I wouldn't like it, but I might be able to work around the problem with some extra care, and the engineers of this forum might even be able to suggest some home-brew remedies.

 

If it's (1), then I can understand why they haven't been saying much, but I think it's the wrong tactic. They could come up with a better PR position than silence, that would also reassure their customers.

 

 

JC

 

Very well put. The actual facts might vary from this analysis, but the three tier notion of what may be wrong/how they go about fixing it is very sound and probably realistic.

 

It would be nice to get some feedback from Leica in this regard, but their tgrack record is not likely to suggest this. Perhaps they are hearing enough guff from us users and are thinking about how to respond. I hope so, as I really like the camera and their systems.

[jaapv]

I FOUND IT ! I FOUND IT ! Here is the sound an ostrich makes:

 

http://www.wildcam.com/images/guides/sounds/38.wav

 

Except maybe it can't make it when its head is stuck i the sand !

 

Edmund

 

I kinda like Ostriches....

 

 

[gravastar]

........It would be nice to get some feedback from Leica in this regard, but their tgrack record is not likely to suggest this. Perhaps they are hearing enough guff from us users and are thinking about how to respond. I hope so, as I really like the camera and their systems.

 

That's why I posted my comments, as a gentle nudge to Leica. I like the camera, it suits my end purpose extremely well and so far has given excellent results. My Canon SLRs are not a viable option. I'll contact Customer Services to see if there are any updates on the situation. I have two assignments later in the year, one in Australia the other Los Angeles. They are a one off and cannot be repeated so reliability is most important. I don't want to invest in an unreliable backup.

 

Bob.

[mitchell]

I'm sure it is ridiculously naive to think there might be so simple a solution, but I wonder if how one deals with the battery might be relevant.

 

I run the battery all the way down before exchanging it with my spare, and I've had no problems.

 

Could this possibly be a better practice?

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

[rosuna]

Maybe Leica doesn't know what is happening and why at this moment. That's all.

[eronald]

I kinda like Ostriches....

 

 

 

 

Yes, all those sweet little baby executives, excuse me, baby ostriches

 

Edmund

[herbkell]

I share some posters concerns about reliablility - I purchased my M8 in November (kindly swapped by Popflash in December) with a 5 week trip to SE Asia in mind. That trip is three weeks away now and I am on edge about the reliability of my camera.

 

I have had several temporary crashes (one of which took more than 24 hours before the "reset") worked. My camera is also one of those that requires a shutter push before it turns on and sometimes now have to press the shutter more than once. Also since installing 1.092 my indicator registers 0 before showing my the remaining number of shots and it now takes longer to do this than it did when the new firmware was installed.-up to five seconds.....

 

None of this fills me with confidence in my new investment. No sign of the Leica "free filters" or "30% off" lens and perhaps slim chance that I will see either or firmware 1.10 before I leave.

 

Naturally I will be taking a spare camera on the trip but I really want to shoot this trip with an M8. Most of my trips are wildlife oriented and I am tired of the enormous amounts of gear I have to lug on these shoots and was really looking forward to the minimilist approach.

 

Here's hoping my M8 stays alive for the next couple of months

[colorflow]

I'm sure it is ridiculously naive to think there might be so simple a solution, but I wonder if how one deals with the battery might be relevant.

 

I run the battery all the way down before exchanging it with my spare, and I've had no problems.

 

Could this possibly be a better practice?

 

Best,

 

Mitchell

Unfortunately that was not the cure in my case. My M8 died a similar death after I have run my batteries down and recharged. It is now making its way to Solms for repair and the 'upgrade'. Very disappointing to hear so many similar failures and no word from Leica. I called NJ and they said they have never heard of such failures before. I think this is a problem waiting to happen for a lot of M8s, especially the early ones.

 

Alan

[ustein]

These camera breakdowns scare me most. I asked Leica representative a couple of times about it and did not get a useful reply. On the other side it is hard to track random faults because you cannot force them. I think they should just take 50 M8 and pound them in their lab.

 

Leica also needs to improve the speed of camera repairs by a few magnitudes.

 

Uwe

[AlanG]

These camera breakdowns scare me most. I asked Leica representative a couple of times about it and did not get a useful reply. On the other side it is hard to track random faults because you cannot force them. I think they should just take 50 M8 and pound them in their lab.

 

Leica also needs to improve the speed of camera repairs by a few magnitudes.

 

Uwe

 

I agree, reliability is paramount to me. I was curious about the M8 and would probably find it pleasurable to work with. But first the magenta issue, then this. As a working pro, I couldn't use it. I bought my first Nikon in 1967 (used). I probably owned more than a dozen of them over the years even though a lot of my work at that time was on MF and 4x5. I switched to Canon 3 1/2 years ago (3 bodies) and have subsequently shot a very high volume of work with them. None of these cameras (Nikon or Canon) has ever failed me. (Other than one Nikon lens diaphragm freezing open in very cold weather.) Leica used to have a reputation like that too. They better do whatever they can to get it back.

 

Additionally, with Nikon NPS and Canon CPS, professionals are pretty well supported and repairs are swift (I'm told.) The only camera system I ever had that was a bit temperamental was the Rollei 6006 medium fromat system that went through some "growing pains" when it first came out. Like some of you Leica M8 owners, I felt the camera was worth it and I had backups. But at least I could get the Rollei repaired quickly from Marflex in New Jersey, and they'd overnight loaner gear for me if I needed it. If not for this good support, I would have gone back to Hassleblad.

 

Leica needs to find some way of assuring pros they can get their cameras repaired fast. I have a Sigma 12-24 and the diaphram broke. It took less than a week for it to be repaired including ground shipping from DC to NY and back. Sigma may be a moderately priced brand but they gave me premium service. Leica needs be able to match this level of service if they want to keep pros happy.

[stevme]

As troubling as these failures are, we should remember to be careful not to make sweeping generalizations concerning the M8's reliability. I hope Leica can identify the offending components and/or software and resolve the problems soon. In the meantime, keeping a backup camera handy is always a good idea, and it beats hand-wringing induced stress.

 

Larry

 

My frame of reference on this reliablity issue is the airplane. I purchased a brand spanking new model of one several years back from a well known manufacturer. It was, like the M8, their new move into the future. As you can imagine, you must have implicit, near absolute faith in the machine to take it aloft. Operational issues at 25,000 feet can be awkward, though not always impossible to deal with. Soon after its introduction, and after I had received mine from the factory, operational issues developed, including several fatalities, and the FAA grounded the whole fleet. Personal airplane manufacturers are mostly small, like Leica, and it was feared that the grounding would ruin the company and the owners' investment. After a period of several months, the aircraft were gradually brought on line with instructions for fixes given to mechanics. A few more tweaks followed, and after about a year the crisis passed. It was an unsettling experience, but after a time confidence returned, and I flew that bird for nearly 20 years in safety. As it turned out, most of the problem was with the pilots themselves who had never before experienced an aircraft with such capabilities and made some bad mistakes, mostly in a high, flight level, altitude environment with which they were not familiar.

 

In the airplane world, every accident or incident is treated as an opportunity to examine systems and pilot behavior. The entire fleet is constantly monitored, and pilots and mechanics pay close attention. If a system change is warranted, pilots make them, even if not required by the government, to protect their skins. Pilots also regularly train to maintain their operational skills.

 

I hope Leica, and the user community, is applying a similar paradigm in this case, if loosely applied. Reliability must be brought within managable bounds. That is an absolute, especially when the decisive moment must be captured (or be sensed just before image capture, as I understand Cartier-Bresson). I myself have not experienced any of the failures cited after several months of use. My only real issue is with the ease with which shutter mode may be accidentially changed. The design should be changed to a knob of some sort with detents, one that perhaps lifts up to make a change.

 

But user responsibility for failure should not be ignored either. Users experiencing failure should set out the exact circumstances under which it occurred. Are users, like my fellow pilots, rushing out to use their magnificent new instrument without proper operational procedures and safeguards? When moving from a familiar Canon or Nikon digital SLR to the M8, should procedures change beyond the obvious differences of rangefinder photography and the absence of auto-focus, shutter priority and zoom? Does the M8 have some special needs of an electronic nature? Perhaps the sensor carries an unusally high electrical charge as compared to SLR cameras that requires special precautions. Do we users need some instruction or training from Solms that we are not now receiving? Perhaps, like an aircraft, certain maintenance requirements must observed for this particular camera, for example, a requirement for a fresh battery charge after a certain period of non-use. Users need to know what they should be doing to achieve maximum reliability.

 

It would, of course, be in the interest of Leica to keep these special requirements to a minimum. Users can then decide whether the special needs or procedures, if any, are an acceptable trade-off for the images produced. For example, we now live with cut-filters, although this special procedure does not pertain to total failure avoidance, just fidelity of hue.

 

The obvious answer for those for whom reliability has failed to meet a certain threshold, as is the case with the original poster to this thread, is to sell their camera or make a warranty claim, certainly an unhappy result. But as more cameras make their way into the field we will have a better sense where the problem or problems lie, be it quality control, system design, user error or inattention or some other factor. Leica knows the stakes.

 

As for me, I am willing to ride along in the anticipation that the turbulence will subside, even if it means taking the Canon out while problems are addressed. I have been doing just that while my camera is at Solms, and by the way, I have come to really dislike autofocus. I have lost several shots in low light while the camera hunts for contrast -- an obvious design flaw.

[Lode]

Steve, thanks for your posting. It's a thorough analysis of the problem.

As to the autofocus (which like you I hate), you can reduce it to a simple question: How should an automatic system know where you want to focus?

[ho_co]

Leica used to have a[n excellent] reputation like that too. They better do whatever they can to get it back.

 

Additionally, with Nikon NPS and Canon CPS, professionals are pretty well supported and repairs are swift (I'm told.)

 

Leica needs to find some way of assuring pros they can get their cameras repaired fast ... if they want to keep pros happy.

Hear, hear!

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jlancasterd]

As to the autofocus (which like you I hate), you can reduce it to a simple question: How should an automatic system know where you want to focus?

 

Hear,Hear! This is exactly why I love my R8 plus DMR and have sold my Fuji S1 and S3 gear - even as a non-professional I found it frustrating that I was losing too many shots whilst the Fujis dithered. However I do wish that there was an affordable R lens wider than 19mm - I had a Sigma 12-35mm for the Fujis which was excellent in the right conditions.

 

Roll on the full-frame R10 to unchain my Vario-Elmar 21-35!