Yet Another Breakdown. Enough.

[Jamie Roberts]

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I agree, reliability is paramount to me. I was curious about the M8 and would probably find it pleasurable to work with. But first the magenta issue, then this. As a working pro, I couldn't use it. I bought my first Nikon in 1967 (used). I probably owned more than a dozen of them over the years even though a lot of my work at that time was on MF and 4x5. I switched to Canon 3 1/2 years ago (3 bodies) and have subsequently shot a very high volume of work with them. None of these cameras (Nikon or Canon) has ever failed me. (Other than one Nikon lens diaphragm freezing open in very cold weather.) Leica used to have a reputation like that too. They better do whatever they can to get it back.

{snipped}

 

Hey Alan--

 

People have such short memories. The 1ds2 (yes, that one) had terrible birthing problems. Seriously--I bet more pros gave up Canon and switched to MF over the 1ds2's *dropped frames* and *lockups* than any other digicam ever.

 

What was the cause? An I/O problem--not writing properly to the media.

 

I somehow suspect something similar *may* be going on with the M8. Not that I've had any trouble with mine like this in more than 4K frames.

 

I *did* have a bad card once. That looked suspiciously like a lock-up, until two different operating systems couldn't read the card itself. The M8 works fine with other cards.

 

I also think Leica is a bit swamped, though, too--they've got a good seller on their hands, and tons of interest and press.

 

But they obviously need to address the whole infrastructure around the camera too. That means more people and more service. Right now, I'm sure Leica NJ is overwhelmed.

 

But back when they weren't, they fixed my R9/DMR in one week, with border time. That's outstanding, and exactly 2 days less time that it took Canon to do a routine CPS inspection of my 1ds2

 

So what Leica needs is the "pro program" with loaners, etc... I understand. But their service level is still excellent by any standard, and despite glitches here and there, is holding up.

 

Finally--no-one really knows what the statistical problem here is like. Since we don't know how many M8s have sold, we really can't tell what the failure rate is like.

 

However, it's too bad they happen at all. I'm sorry, too, that all this talk makes people not trust their M8. I'm still using mine for paid work, though I always--always--have a backup camera--regardless of what camera I'm using

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[ustein]

>Finally--no-one really knows what the statistical problem here is like. Since we don't know how many M8s have sold, we really can't tell what the failure rate is like.

 

Normally I think the same way. But if you hear about the problem and then you experience it yourself it looks different. Mine was a minor lockup. Means removing the battery and inserting it did the trick. The bad thing is that you feel it can hapen any time. In my world I only shoot very static nature scenes so removing the battery is not even a big deal.

 

Uwe

[sreidvt]

How can they sort it out ? Their camera is a lemon. Instead of sorting out reliability issues, they have to add "new" firmware features like lens-coding, IR filter profiles etc. And of course, a new Leicaflex, and new lenses and and and and.

 

Make the existing stuff work ? How can they, when their A team is on new product development ?

 

Edmund

 

It's possible that the two are related. The failures some of us have seen may be related to issues that can be fixed in firmware.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[AlanG]

Hey Alan--

 

People have such short memories. The 1ds2 (yes, that one) had terrible birthing problems. Seriously--I bet more pros gave up Canon and switched to MF over the 1ds2's *dropped frames* and *lockups* than any other digicam ever.

 

 

I have a long memory. I waited on the 1DsII and still haven't bought one. (Not to say there is anything wrong with it now. I just didn't need it.) I try not to be an early adopter unless circumstances force me to be one. As for the MF backs, you also need two of them and that gets real expensive.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Bottom line: Shit happens and there is no way of getting around it. Always CYA

[gogopix]

Right. I would like to know what the failure RATE is for Leica. It is a new product and they all go thru a 'bathtub' failure curve. lots of early failures do NOT necessarily have anything to do with long term reliability.

 

If it were not for the rework, Leica would likely replace these a lot quicker.

 

As they say in the military it takes 50 "atta boy"s to offset one "aw sh_t"

[Jamie Roberts]

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I have a long memory. I waited on the 1DsII and still haven't bought one. (Not to say there is anything wrong with it now. I just didn't need it.) I try not to be an early adopter unless circumstances force me to be one. As for the MF backs, you also need two of them and that gets real expensive.

 

Alan, I wasn't aiming my amnesiac comment at you, especially--sorry if it sounded like I was

 

And with MF backs, you need to deal with IR, too

 

@ Uwe--I completely and totally sympathize. When my M8 wheel developed a problem, I started to think "oh boy--maybe we're going to see a lot of this" but we haven't, thankfully.

 

When my card crashed with the "SD card full" message (when I knew it wasn't), and that blinking red light came on and wouldn't go off, I thought "oh-oh, this is bad". And, from a software perspective, it was bad--the camera should degrade more gracefully than that!

 

But in this case it *did* seem to be the card, and I replaced it and went from there.

 

But even I get a little frayed around the edges when the camera does something unexpected like that! The fact that the card was un-recoverable didn't make me feel too good either... but cards *do* fail and I'm probably just unlucky. Still, it doesn't make you feel great when it happens!

[barjohn]

By the way, here is a new bug I have found with firmware 1.092. When you go to do a sensor clean, the camera may Lock up at the screen that says push the shutter button. You push and nothing happens and you can't turn off the camera or do anything, all buttons are non-responsive. If you remove the battery and put it back and try again it may work the second time. Sometimes it will work the first time and not the second one. I tried swapping batteries for a fully charged battery and I still get the unpredictable results. Others can test and verify.

[ho_co]

Wait a minute here, John!

 

What are you doing cleaning the sensor? I didn't think anybody had had the camera back long enough to need to do that, what with all the shipping delays...

 

--HC

[barjohn]

Where do you think all of the dust comes from?? :D LOL

[mwilliamsphotography]

I'm not sure attacking another camera maker in defense of Leica is relevant.

 

Where are the statistics on the Canon 1DsMKII that backs up the smear comment? As a counterpoint: between the 4 shooters that collaborate on weddings with my company, all received their MK2s the minute they were available in the US ... none have failed, had any hiccups or have acted finicky in any way ... and this is mega professional level use. I cannot comment on Canon's service since we have never had to use it.

 

I am NOT a big fan of Canon, but reliability is NUMERAL UNO in the work I do and the proof is in the actual use.

 

Until Leica gets this camera working up to the level of its past reputation, I cannot subject my clients to possible camera failure out of some misguided sense of loyalty. My only loyalty is to the people who pay me, not Leica.

 

Until then, the M8 will remain relegated to a minor supporting role rather than the role I had envisioned when I plunked down my 5K.

 

I know this irritates ardent evangelists that sing the sirens song of image quality no matter what. However, image quality is a mute point if the camera shuts down on you during that "Decisive Moment".

[Shootist]

By the way, here is a new bug I have found with firmware 1.092. When you go to do a sensor clean, the camera may Lock up at the screen that says push the shutter button. You push and nothing happens and you can't turn off the camera or do anything, all buttons are non-responsive. If you remove the battery and put it back and try again it may work the second time. Sometimes it will work the first time and not the second one. I tried swapping batteries for a fully charged battery and I still get the unpredictable results. Others can test and verify.

 

 

This is a know problem/bug. If you set the option "Clean Sensor" and then let it sit for X amount of time the camera will lock up. This has been tested and verified by a few users and posted about on this forum.

Select Clean Sensor and then within 1-5 seconds hit the shutter release.

I have not had this problem but I always get everything ready then select Clean Sensor and immediately hit the shutter.

Also it is best to do the sensor cleaning with a freshly charged battery, not one that has been in the camera whether or not it still read fully charged. In my experience even if the battery has 2 bars remaining you wil get the "Battery does not have enough charge to preform this operation" warning.

[chetccox]

If this is a known problem, why do all cameras not do it? I can select 'clean sensor' and wait several minutes before activating the shutter and it still works normally. It does not lock up. I wonder why there are so many different cameras out. Some will not turn on at all without activating the shutter. Mine is also not one of these. And so far, I have had no problems with it. It is a very early camera, serial 3100260, and was in the first batch to be modified in early December.

[billh]

I have one of the very first 1Ds2 to be sent out. It has been used in the rain, snow and mud and has many, many tens of thousands of shutter actuations, and I have not had any glitches from it. I am not sure what the relevancy is the to issues so many of us are having with the M8, but no one I know with a 1Ds2 has experienced any problems. I had focus adjustments made on both the 1Ds and 1Ds2 at Canon CPS in NJ and the cameras were returned immediately. They also did something with the 80-200 f2.8IS to keep it from locking up the 1D2, and that worked, but only for a short time. There seems to be some incompatibility issue here. My experience with Leica NJ repair (twice) could not have been worse. I finally sent a 75 f1.4 lens to Germany, and for a small fee they returned a tack sharp lens to me. Twice, after keeping it forever, and (hopefully) looking at resolution chart negatives and comparative photographs, they told me nothing was wrong with this very unsharp lens. Therefore it sat unused on my shelf for a great many years. I now buy everything from a great German dealer, and when my first M8 failed, he contacted the factory and mine was back to them and a replacement here very, very quickly - I think in just over a week. This also occured when the APO135 I bought from him was not sharp (Leica even apologized for this). It appears that there are so many of these things being returned they cannot keep up with it. Furthermore, they apparently group them together to ship from NJ to Germany, and the same situation occurs for repaired cameras. In the three instances I know of, they have removed the hot shoe with the serial number from the failed camera and put it on a new M8, and that is what they return. If this is true for all failed M8s, there must be a considerable number of them to account for the long delays we see described on this list.

[barjohn]

This is a know problem/bug. If you set the option "Clean Sensor" and then let it sit for X amount of time the camera will lock up. This has been tested and verified by a few users and posted about on this forum.

Select Clean Sensor and then within 1-5 seconds hit the shutter release.

I have not had this problem but I always get everything ready then select Clean Sensor and immediately hit the shutter.

Also it is best to do the sensor cleaning with a freshly charged battery, not one that has been in the camera whether or not it still read fully charged. In my experience even if the battery has 2 bars remaining you wil get the "Battery does not have enough charge to preform this operation" warning.

 

I am the one that first posted that bug. This is different. There is no delay between selecting sensor clean and pressing the button and it either works or doesn't the first time with a fresh new battery. If it works the first time it won't the second and if it doesn't work the first time (locks up) it does work the second time after removing the battery. Before the current firmware upgrade it always worked everytime provided there was no delay.

[Jamie Roberts]

@ Marc--no one is bashing Canon; at least, I hope that's not aimed at me. But I'm not sure trotting out another line of cameras as being particularly immune to "defect" is worthwhile either, and that's why I mentioned the 1ds2 teething problems.

 

That you didn't see any 1ds2 problem, or your friends didn't see it, doesn't mean there wasn't a serious incompatibility between the camera and Lexar cards. As I said, it turned out it wasn't the camera itself so much as the interplay between the camera's card writing and certain CF cards, notably Leica.

 

Lexar paid for the recall of all its 80x mark 2 (the "good ones") memory. I know, because I was using it at the time, and had all of mine replaced.

 

Lexar 80x CF Card Recall - Pro Photo HOME

 

And Bill mentions the famous "error 99" message a lot of Canon 1 users got with their beloved 70-200 lenses. In the middle of a wedding shoot, no less.

 

And there's the 5d banding issue / interference issue. I believe Canon will fix any camera that exhibits this, but they certainly didn't provide for mass recalling of gear.

 

Having said all that, I never experienced error 99, but many have.

 

But when people started losing images with the 1ds2, they didn't blame the cards; they mainly blamed the camera. And in truth, it was both, under special, but repeatable, conditions.

 

So my only, non-Canon-bashing point was this: Even a stellar camera like the 1ds2, which I relied on for a very long time, had its birthing problems in the user community. I don't care if everyone saw them, but on the Internet, people have a way of panicking!

 

That's all I'm saying--don't panic: it's early days yet for the M8.

 

Don't recall this?

 

Here's the very similar to the LUF thread on the old Rob Galbraith's forum. No--this isn't dPreview:

 

LOST 1ds2 images - Pro Photo HOME

 

Edmund has also had his share of problems, and he's a good guy, and I sympathize with him:

Fast come, fast go - 1DsII DOA - Pro Photo HOME

 

He had a good outcome, but here's the follow-up... notice these folks are shooting Lexar media, and the pattern is beginning to emerge:

1DS MkII - repetitive file corruption. - Pro Photo HOME

 

Want more? Go there and search "lost images" in the Canon 1 series thread.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I know this irritates ardent evangelists that sing the sirens song of image quality no matter what. However, image quality is a mute point if the camera shuts down on you during that "Decisive Moment"

 

Come on Marc you know i love ya but if you do not have a extra camera sitting on your shoulder than your a damn idiot with any system. It works just like any other and it will fail just like any other. I admit maybe more than we want at this point but that extra body is less than 2 seconds away.

[Shootist]

I am the one that first posted that bug. This is different. There is no delay between selecting sensor clean and pressing the button and it either works or doesn't the first time with a fresh new battery. If it works the first time it won't the second and if it doesn't work the first time (locks up) it does work the second time after removing the battery. Before the current firmware upgrade it always worked everytime provided there was no delay.

 

Well John I did 3 cleanings just the other night, a bunch of stuff stuck to the sensor, and didn't have any problems activating the shutter. I really don't know what is going on but others have posted various problems, like the one you are having, that only affect some M8's and not others.

This looks like a QC problem and or someone changed parts/components in some of the electronics without complete testing of the new parts.

Like some units have motherboard X and some have motherboard Y and although they are supposed to be the same they aren't.

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[Jamie Roberts]

Eep. Can't edit my own post--just wanted to add in the threads I've referenced, you'll see Edmund, me, Guy, JR Geffrion, and others you might recognize

 

Yes, we're all early adopters, and this is the price of admission (though JR isn't on the M8 yet, I don't think).

 

And lest you think those posts are made by folks who are just likely to complain, here are a couple of heavy Canon users that contributed to that post and to, ultimately, getting the fix from Canon and Lexar...

 

Mark Tucker

 

http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/

 

sokolsky.com

 

andy farrington photography

 

http://www.marktomalty.com/

 

And many, many more. These are all folks whose opinion and work I really, really respect, so, again, I'm not in any way bashing or smearing Canon. But there was a serious issue there.

[leicaM8freak]

I was not planning to post here, since I am NOT an M8 owner ANYMORE.

 

How happy I was, and how lucky I felt to be one of the first ( beginning November last year) to own a black bodied M8...

How fast I collected the glass needed for this beauty..

 

How fast the disappointment began.

I am not going to bore anybody here with it, but I had each and every issue imaginable with my M8.

 

It went to Solms and back for the upgrade, and returned as far as I am concerned in a worse state then before...only possitive thing was that the grease, and dust and I do not know what more that clung to the sensor from the beginning wasn't there anymore.

 

Then after thinking i was reasonably safe I took the M8 to my first paid for job..

And yes Guy, I am a damn idiot as you call it, not because I did not go out without a backup, no because I trusted the flippin M8 and what I did see on my screen in review, but what never made it to my Card (AND please notice a card as suggested by Leica!!!)

 

Out of 26 images 9 were gone completely...I stopped wondering why, because there is no understandable motivation for this.

 

Ever since that moment, I do not dare to take this thing out to make money. Even if I would have 2 bodies I would not.

 

Mine must have been a very bad one....godspeed to the ones who seem to have a properly working M8...I hope and pray for you it stays that way!!!

 

I tired all and everything up from 1.09 to 1.091 and 1.092 my problems remain, a unreliable machine.

 

So I returned it to my dealer and htold him I do NOT want a replacement giving the fact that the problems seem to appear even with the newest versions...I just want my money back.

 

I am lucky enough to have to be able to sell most my glass without to much loss.only the Cron APO 90 remains at the moment

 

For me November 2006-end of February 2007 was from photographic point of view a nightmare.

 

By M8. auf niemals wiedersehen! (hope to never see you again)

 

 

Sorry my dear fellow forum users I can only underwrite the very first post in this thread....Enough

 

All the best