Report from PMA - greetings, gossip, and reading between the lines

[adan]

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Just got back from the PMA show in Las Vegas. Here some tidbits I picked up:

 

LEICA - Met Leica USA President Roger Horn, Leica USA VP sales Christian Ernhardt, and Leica Germany M8 Product Manager Stefan Daniel. Also met our hero Guy Mancuso.

 

The only really new product Leica was showing was the C-Lux 2, which I didn't pay much attention to (sorry!). Mostly I wanted to see the 2 new lenses introduced at PhotoKina (16/18/21 and 28 f/2.8 ASPH) - to aid in choosing my 30% discount lens. Both looked good (good corner definition with the WATE, nice size with the 28 ASPH).

 

One dealer was preordering three quote-"R10"s-unquote. Leica had NOTHING to say on the subject, but did accept the orders. The buzz I picked up is no official word on a DMR replacement until at least the summer, and more likely the autumn. Someone joked that maybe Leica should introduce a digital SLR that would also accept film.

 

Stefan Daniel talked lenses with Guy and me. He rather firmly squelched the idea of faster 28s and 24s - he said it just could not be done with the optical quality Leica wants and also in a size that would not block the viewfinder significantly. "F/2 is the best compromise." He WAS rather interested in our ideas concerning a prime lens in the 15-17mm range, wanting to know what physical size and aperture we had in mind. We seemed to be dancing around the the idea of something the size of the current 21, even if it meant f/3.4 rather than f/2.8.

 

Zeiss - Talked to the Zeiss rep around the corner (all the Made in Germany folks were grouped nearby). He showed me the 21 that had been loaned to Sean Reid, pointing out where there were still traces of some Magic-Marker lens coding. He had a working version of the new ZM 21 f/4.5, and a "dummy" version of the 18mm f/4 (one piece of glass, no functioning focus or aperture rings). The 21 should ship very soon - the 18 will be a couple of months yet.

 

I asked him about the future of a digital Zeiss Ikon. Not encouraging. A paraphrase - "Why would we want to invest 2 years in development when we don't know what the digital rangefinder market (if any) will be 2 years from now?" I'd put it at long odds - even by Las Vegas standards. But hold your breath if you want to...

 

Misc. other stuff:

 

Oddball Chinese stereo 6x6 film camera was being shown across the aisle from Leica - Like a Rollei TLR with 3 lenses. Didn't Rollei sell their own stero version at some point?

 

Rollei was there, with the Hy6, and the classic TLRs revived (in wide, normal, and tele versions)

 

AGFA's name was there, associated with digital P&S cameras and some kind of softwear suite. The big Agfa minilabs were also there, being marketed under the name "AAA".

 

Sony had two prototype prototypes of more advanced DSLRs in the Alpha line - dummies under glass. Even the reps said they had no idea of the eventual specs yet. The top of the line has a very pointed Nikon F-style prism.

 

The analog version of Ilford (Harman technologies) was nowhere to be seen. Only the Swiss inkjet-paper "Ilford" had a booth.

 

Epson was supposedly offering VIPs a sneak preview of a new printer - speculation was it will be the replacement for the 4800.

 

Anyway, that's what I remember after 18 hours driving back to Denver (the last 100 miles through the Rockies took 4 hours due to snow and accidents). Ask questions and maybe they'll trigger my memory. I expect Guy may have some notes to add as well.

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[carstenw]

I am curious about the 15-17mm lens. I would have expanded that to a 15mm and an 18mm myself, and for this focal length, f/4 is fine. Who shoots wide open with such a wide lens? Anyway, do you recall any more details of that conversation? Price point, and so on?

[marknorton]

Thanks Andy, 18 hours to drive, there's dedication for you! Didn't you think about flying?

 

Disappointing about the faster 28 and 24... but I guess we knew that. With those options all but ruled out, it's tough to see what else Leica might do in terms of new M lenses, especially if 6000 sales are required to re-coup the development and tooling costs.

 

The Zeiss Disatagon shows what would be needed for a 15mm f2.8 in terms of size and cost, so a 16mm f3.4 (to align with the standard focal lengths) would be interesting, but hard to see it being significantly less expensive than a WATE, if at all. Stand the WATE next to a 21mm Elmarit and the size difference is not so significant.

 

How did you find the finder?

[rosuna]

Did anyone ask about the Leica-Jenoptik affair?

Leica tried to buy the Sinar brand of business from Jenoptik. Why? Was Leica thinking in developing medium format lenses and cameras? The agreement was broken. Why? What are the consequences for the relationship between Leica and Jenoptik?

 

Panasonic developed the LC1 (Digilux 3) in collaboration with Olympus, which has just abandoned the Porro system. Does Leica plan to collaborate with Panasonic in the development of new 4/3 lenses and cameras? Will this collaboration become stronger? Any 100% Leica products for 4/3 standard anytime soon?

 

How good (or bad) is the finantial situation of Leica? Have they abandoned the red numbers? How the M8 problems have affected Leica's costs and sales? How are evolving the sales of R cameras and lenses, M film cameras and lenses and the M8?

[like_no_other]

Did anyone ask about the Leica-Jenoptik affair?

Leica tried to buy the Sinar brand of business from Jenoptik. Why? Was Leica thinking in developing medium format lenses and cameras? The agreement was broken. Why? What are the consequences for the relationship between Leica and Jenoptik?

 

Panasonic developed the LC1 (Digilux 3) in collaboration with Olympus, which has just abandoned the Porro system. Does Leica plan to collaborate with Panasonic in the development of new 4/3 lenses and cameras? Will this collaboration become stronger? Any 100% Leica products for 4/3 standard anytime soon?

 

How good (or bad) is the finantial situation of Leica? Have they abandoned the red numbers? How the M8 problems have affected Leica's costs and sales? How are evolving the sales of R cameras and lenses, M film cameras and lenses and the M8?

 

I read in the news (in the beginning of this year or the end of last year) that Jenoptics had some reservations regarding the somehow unclear ownership of Leica. No more detailed information was given. So the deal couldn't happen. I think it's up to Leica to conduct their plans with Jenoptik on the basis of a not so strong business relationship.

I hoped for a ground-up newly designed professional modular system for Leica R lenses as well as medium format lenses. This could be a perfect solution for Leica to gain high quality reputation as well as providing a solution for R system users.

 

In the German forum some Leica information was posted. Surprisingly it said that the M8 had positively influenced sales of analog M bodies in a noticeable amount.

[Vivek Iyer]

Andy, Any clues about a B&W version with higher pixel count?

[ptomsu]

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I read in the news (in the beginning of this year or the end of last year) that Jenoptics had some reservations regarding the somehow unclear ownership of Leica. No more detailed information was given. So the deal couldn't happen. I think it's up to Leica to conduct their plans with Jenoptik on the basis of a not so strong business relationship.

I hoped for a ground-up newly designed professional modular system for Leica R lenses as well as medium format lenses. This could be a perfect solution for Leica to gain high quality reputation as well as providing a solution for R system users.

 

In the German forum some Leica information was posted. Surprisingly it said that the M8 had positively influenced sales of analog M bodies in a noticeable amount.

 

Indeed such a solution for R and maybe medium format lenses digital back would be interesting and could nicely position Leica again in the high end areas as a leader. Lets stay tuned...

 

Peter

[kamilsukun]

Andy, Any clues about a B&W version with higher pixel count?

 

A 35mm(equiv.) fixed lens B&W only high res Leica may make a lot of money.

[terrycioni]

Andy, thanks for the Leica/Zeiss/other updates. I have become a big fan of Zeiss lenses on the M. I have the 21,25,35, and 50 on the way. Did you get any sense that Zeiss is interested in coding their lens for use on the M8 or am dreaming.

 

Thank you. Terry.

[jaapv]

Andy, thanks for the Leica/Zeiss/other updates. I have become a big fan of Zeiss lenses on the M. I have the 21,25,35, and 50 on the way. Did you get any sense that Zeiss is interested in coding their lens for use on the M8 or am dreaming.

 

Thank you. Terry.

 

Coding by Zeiss seems utopic because of patent protection. But Zeiss are very cooperative in supplying the correct mounts for their lenses, and small workshops that can do precision machining can be found all over.

[adan]

Carsten: Well, for low light journalism every f/stop helps, even with wide-angles. F/2.8 vs. f/4 allows hand-holding at 1/8th instead of 1/4 sec, or 1/4 vs. 1/2. Price point was not discussed, but it's fairly clear it would be in - but not above - the upper end of the current price range (somewhere close to the WATE, with the trade-off of a small speed and size advantage, and less complex optics vs. the 3 focal lengths.

 

Mark: I took parts of two days each way, and got to stop off for pictures at Arches and Zion Natl Parks, as well as other scenery en route. A good test of v.1.092.

 

Regarding the hypothetical superwide prime, I was interested that STEFAN was interested in our thoughts. While it might not be that different in base size from the WATE, once one factors in 55m filters vs. 67mm filters-plus-adapter the size difference might be more obvious. It was a VERY hypothetical exchange of possibilities, however.

 

I was not excited by the new multi-finder. As other have mentioned, basically it's a fixed 15mm finder with a lot of barrel distortion, and the framelines "zoom" within that fixed magnification just as the lines zoom within a normal built-in M finder. In someways it's an elegant solution to covering 15-28 fields of view, with the ability to see what's coming outside the frame lines like an M's built-in finder - but I prefer the compact single-focal-length finders myself.

 

Ruben - I didn't get into the business dealings and results with anyone. Beside which I think its a bit early. I'd expect the first Q 2007 to be the "cleanest" measure of how they're doing - the income and the extra costs associated with the M8 introduction and fixes will have stabilized a bit.

 

As to what lies in the future, the "R10" is still very much undefined. I've heard speculation (and that's all it is) that it might even be a semi-medium-format sensor using the full R-lens image circle. But even the "public" Leica folks are just guessing at this point.

 

The subject of a B&W-only M never came up, nor did that of an M-like fixed-lens camera.

 

Terry: The Zeiss rep seemed to LIKE the magic-marker approach! At least he was amused by Sean's efforts and hadn't tried to erase them.

 

I probably should have asked specifically about their plans, but my impression was Zeiss is just putting the ZM and ZF (Nikon mount) lenses out there, and letting the consumer figure out how to make them work best with the camera interfaces.

 

Boy, the ZF lenses looked BIG compared to the ZM lenses (except the 15, of course).

[albertknappmd]

An R10 !!! Just when I was getting used to my DMRs. Oh well, I will wait a while and make sure every bug is ironed out before making the switch to the R10. Let us pray it is FF and 16MP and less bulky than the DMR....

[adan]

Doc Al: As I said, Leica wasn't even confirming or denying at this point. Figure at least 6 months before they even say what they're working on. You'll have lots of time to wear out the DMRs.

 

All I know is that, whatever it is, and whenever it is, some dealer already has dibs on the first 3 whatevers.

[rosuna]

As to what lies in the future, the "R10" is still very much undefined. I've heard speculation (and that's all it is) that it might even be a semi-medium-format sensor using the full R-lens image circle. But even the "public" Leica folks are just guessing at this point.

 

The R lenses image circle only covers 43mm of diameter, I suppose. The only semi-medium-format thing they can do is to use a square sensor. A square sensor with 43mm of diagonal maximizes the surface of the sensor. You can provide 2:3 and even 4:3 lines in the viewfinder for helping in the composition of rectangular images (and then crop). It is not a bad idea at all, but I cannot see why this would make the R system more appealing.

[carstenw]

A 4:3 image might be more attractive to MF refugees. It is certainly more useful for publishing. It would also have more pixels than a 3:2 image in the same image circle.

[rosuna]

You are right Carsten.

[leicar7]

Yea, but what will be the cost in increased complexity and R body/shutter size with an oversized sensor.

 

Leica's record with introducing new cameras with lots of electronics is not stellar. They blew the R4 and got it right not until R4S-P, and they blew the R8 for about two years until they could finally get it to be reliable.

 

So my hope for an R10 is for them to stick to 24x36 with some nice additions as referred to in several threads on an R10 on this and the Customer forums. A larger sensor will require a larger shutter, mirror, mirror box, pentaprism, and, possibly other exaggerations to a new camera. Quite a bit to expect in reliability in a new product. The R line is risky enough that I doubt they can afford another R8-like two-year screwup. The R body is much more complex than the M, so the M8 is not a good comparison.

[ho_co]

Thomas--

You're right, they always have problems with initial designs. I understand that even the first M5s used some new designs for some shutter parts (I think it was), and after some problems, Leica quickly decided to go back to the more standard ones.

 

I agree with Rubén with regard to an advantage in a larger format R camera. I never liked working with a square. More room to crop to me sounds more like a theoretical advantage, not so much a practical one. And if my math is right, with the 43.27 mm diagonal, a square would be 30.59 mm on a side. That's only an eight percent increase in area from 864 square mm to 936 square mm.

 

The only advantage I can see in a new non-3:2 format is that they would have the PR value of "thinking outside the box." The R lenses are superb, but big, heavy and non AF, so I'm not sure there's much they could do to grow the customer base. But Leica always surprises me with something desirable.

 

One thing seems clear, though: I doubt that Leica's connection with Minolta was carried over to Sony. That would mean that Leica doesn't have the same body production facilities available, and they'll need to do something new.

 

It's definitely getting exciting. Just hearing the mention of a new R camera, and of new M lenses sounds great!

 

Thanks for the thread, Andy!

 

--HC

[sdai]

One thing seems clear, though: I doubt that Leica's connection with Minolta was carried over to Sony. That would mean that Leica doesn't have the same body production facilities available, and they'll need to do something new.

 

Who is still providing Leica with the 35-70 and 80-200 ROM lenses ... are they simply old new stocks?

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[ho_co]

Who is still providing Leica with the 35-70 and 80-200 ROM lenses ... are they simply old new stocks?

Good point, Simon. I hadn't thought of that.

 

Could be selling from stock; could be that the relationship with Konica/Minolta was extended to Sony until a certain date; could be that the relationship is ongoing.

 

Actually, I know that Minolta wasn't the only Japanese company Leica worked with in lens production, but my knowledge of who built what is far out of date. Are you sure these lenses are actually produced by Minolta? (I'm way out of my league here and have no idea.)

 

Clearly, I was getting ahead of myself in that speculation. Thanks for reining me in!

 

--HC