mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #161 Posted August 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) And you think you have a sensor dust problem now. A FF sensor with a shutter normally open, will be true dust magnate. So you do believe that the shutter is an effective measure against dust? Typically, the sensor of a camera without live view will be exposed only for a few minutes during its entire lifetime, still dust manages to reach the sensor regardless. Just like the closed shutter isn’t very effective against dust, an open shutter isn’t that much of an problem with regard to dust. Btw, just because a camera supports live view, that doesn’t mean you had to use it all the time. You could decide not to use it at all, or only when using it in preference to the rangefinder makes sense. But then again, I’m getting the impression that some people are just desperately looking for reasons why live view would be a bad thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 9, 2012 Posted August 9, 2012 Hi mjh, Take a look here M10 with Live View - I'm wrong to yawn about this ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #162 Posted August 9, 2012 Something nobody touched on so far is the added battery power that will be needed for sustained use of live view. Actually this has been discussed before. Replacing the CCD by a CMOS sensor reduces the energy consumption so a CMOS-based camera would last (slightly) longer on a single charge of its battery. Prolonged use of live view reduces the number of shots per charge, but then you don’t have to use it all the time (or at all). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 9, 2012 Share #163 Posted August 9, 2012 There are good EVFs and there are bad EVFs just like OVFs... They need to buy a decent, large DLP/LCOS/LCD/OLED-chip (which usually comes with a controller unit which is just as easy to implement as an LCD on the back of the camera) and design and manufacture a high-quality glass optical system. With high transmission and avoiding straylight they will be able to create a very good EVF. When they want to cut costs and investments, they will just buy a complete system from Epson (or whoever makes it) for a few $ and you get a ~5k$ camera with a 1k$-like EVF, unworthy of being the successor to the OVFs (even rangefinder) used in the R or M-system. It's not the question if an EVF is suitable for high-quality cameras (technology is finally there) but if the necessary quality is actually implemented. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 9, 2012 Share #164 Posted August 9, 2012 I think they mean the shutter could be like the m4/3 shutter, open all the time except when the release button is pressed when it closes and opens again to make the exposure. But the 4/3 cameras are exclusively live-view. The M10 will have to be more like the DSLRs with live-view options, shutters capable of working as needed in both modes. But to use a physical shutter with live-view, the shutter would need to be open for viewing, then when the shutter release is pressed, it has to close while the sensor goes into exposure mode, then open-close for the exposure, then open again to regain live view, just as the leaf-shutters do in Hasselblad V cameras. Do I have that wrong? Because it certainly seems like that would definitely slow the response time down. In the case of a DSLR, it would probably equal-out the mirror up-down cycle, but how would it compare to the quick response of the M9, which is already "mirrorless"? And all that extra shutter flipping would seem to wear the parts like twice the normal number of actuations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haroldp Posted August 9, 2012 Share #165 Posted August 9, 2012 Actually this has been discussed before. Replacing the CCD by a CMOS sensor reduces the energy consumption so a CMOS-based camera would last (slightly) longer on a single charge of its battery. Prolonged use of live view reduces the number of shots per charge, but then you don’t have to use it all the time (or at all). I agree, I have several camera's with live view, and video modes that I rarely (live view) or never (video) use. These are slr's that do not have framing accuracy or focal length choice issues . I do not see why people object to features they might not use, particularly if not using them mitigates the perceived problems. The reality of modern semiconductor manufacturing is that live view has negligible impact on the cost of production, and my only concern with video mode is that the button uses real estate that I might prefer for more discrete photo controls. If Nikon had to make 2 versions of the D800, 1 with and 1 without video, both would be more expensive due to fewer unit sales ad higher design and tooling cost. An EVF is certainly easier than a Visoflex. Regards .... H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted August 9, 2012 Share #166 Posted August 9, 2012 But then again, I’m getting the impression that some people are just desperately looking for reasons why live view would be a bad thing. To me live view is a gimmick, along with its lessor brother the EVF. Yes it can do a few nice tricks, and you can turn it off. However the technology is still not better than optical, we're still stuck with what ever LCD comes on the camera. Canon and Nikon have provided live view along side there optical viewfinders for a reason. Improve the LCD to better than the eye can see, then it might be useful. I know apples retina display is getting close but it's not there yet. The EVF is still a toy in comparison to optical viewfinder , much for the same reason, but the gap is even greater. In time screens will improve and my objections will lessen. Except for one point. Leica M is and has been sold as a minimalist camera, with no additional features than what is needed. With this new direction, that ends and the basic reason I went with Leica also ends. So I stay with the M9/MM, and film as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 9, 2012 Share #167 Posted August 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) But the 4/3 cameras are exclusively live-view. The M10 will have to be more like the DSLRs with live-view options, Why? There is no mirror to get out of the way, the viewfinder of an M camera is entirely removed from the image seen on the film plane. The M is more open to live view than many other cameras, its just that Leica are years behind. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 9, 2012 Share #168 Posted August 9, 2012 Why? There is no mirror to get out of the way, the viewfinder of an M camera is entirely removed from the image seen on the film plane. The M is more open to live view than many other cameras, its just that Leica are years behind. Steve So you think the M10 might be permanently set to have the shutter wide open except at the moment of exposure? Interesting possibility. The issue to overcome would be when not using live-view, how would the camera meter if the sensor isn't "on"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted August 9, 2012 Share #169 Posted August 9, 2012 So you think the M10 might be permanently set to have the shutter wide open except at the moment of exposure? Interesting possibility. The issue to overcome would be when not using live-view, how would the camera meter if the sensor isn't "on"? Well, of course with the sensor! Just because you are not producing 30+ FPS for the live view, it does not prevent the camera to occasionally (< 10 FPS) to read the sensor for measurement. And of course, if it has a closed shutter, as the M9 does.... Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted August 9, 2012 Share #170 Posted August 9, 2012 To answer some posts above, without quotes... The µ4/3rds cameras show how a Leica mirrorless could work. They have the shutter open all the time, except for image taking. Sensor dust is not a problem, I have never cleaned my 4 years old E-P1. On the other side, people are speculating about electronic "global" shutters coming to CMOS sensors for a while. While mostly interesting for clean video, depending on their efficiency, they might remove the need for a mechanical shutter altogether. And that would indeed be a dream M, which is not only completely silent, but also blazingly fast. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 9, 2012 Share #171 Posted August 9, 2012 To answer some posts above, without quotes... The µ4/3rds cameras show how a Leica mirrorless could work. They have the shutter open all the time, except for image taking. Sensor dust is not a problem, I have never cleaned my 4 years old E-P1. On the other side, people are speculating about electronic "global" shutters coming to CMOS sensors for a while. While mostly interesting for clean video, depending on their efficiency, they might remove the need for a mechanical shutter altogether. And that would indeed be a dream M, which is not only completely silent, but also blazingly fast. Peter The NIkon J1 and J2 cameras doesn't have a physical shutter... the shorter exposition time is 1/16,000 of a second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted August 9, 2012 Share #172 Posted August 9, 2012 ph That reminds me of my GF1 which has some sonic thing in it to clean the sensor every time it is powered up. Certainly Leica could incorporate one of those in any new Mwhatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 9, 2012 Share #173 Posted August 9, 2012 The NIkon J1 and J2 cameras doesn't have a physical shutter... the shorter exposition time is 1/16,000 of a second. Implementing an electronic shutter isn’t that difficult; the challenge is to implement a global electronic shutter with CMOS technology where electronic shutters are generally of the rolling shutter variety. Interline transfer CCDs achieve just that; the question how one could achieve the same with CMOS and still deliver high quality images. This challenge has yet to be met. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 9, 2012 Share #174 Posted August 9, 2012 But the 4/3 cameras are exclusively live-view. The M10 will have to be more like the DSLRs with live-view options, shutters capable of working as needed in both modes. But to use a physical shutter with live-view, the shutter would need to be open for viewing, then when the shutter release is pressed, it has to close while the sensor goes into exposure mode, then open-close for the exposure, then open again to regain live view, just as the leaf-shutters do in Hasselblad V cameras. Do I have that wrong? Because it certainly seems like that would definitely slow the response time down. In the case of a DSLR, it would probably equal-out the mirror up-down cycle, but how would it compare to the quick response of the M9, which is already "mirrorless"? And all that extra shutter flipping would seem to wear the parts like twice the normal number of actuations. As I mentioned previously, some cameras use first curtain electronic shutters. This reduces shutter lag. For that matter the Leica shutter could stay closed when not in the live view mode and metering in that mode will be limited to the way it currently works. When in live view mode, the metering options could be expanded pretty easily. This just depends on the choices made by the designers. This sports photographer is using an EVF camera at the Olympics. Pro shooter to cover London 2012 using Panasonic Lumix DMC-G5: Digital Photography Review This camera has a totally silent electronic shutter mode too. I don't know what drawbacks there are when you use this vs.the mechanical shutter. "In front of the Panasonic G5's image sensor is a focal plane shutter, and the camera also now has an electronic shutter mode for silent operation. Shutter speeds range from 1/4,000 to 60 seconds, plus a bulb mode that's limited to a maximum of 120 seconds." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 10, 2012 Share #175 Posted August 10, 2012 I don't know what drawbacks there are when you use this vs.the mechanical shutter. Rolling shutter artefacts. Also there’s apparently no flash sync in electronic shutter mode. Panasonic is working on a global electronic shutter but it isn’t ready just yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted August 10, 2012 Share #176 Posted August 10, 2012 ph That reminds me of my GF1 which has some sonic thing in it to clean the sensor every time it is powered up. Certainly Leica could incorporate one of those in any new Mwhatever. Yes, it is using the Olympus system. When Olympus introduced the 4/3rds system (without µ), they also introduced the sensor-cleaning system which was used in all 4/3rds and µ4/3rds cameras. All the Panasonic cameras use the Olympus system. It works really well, never did a sensor cleaning on one of my Olympus cameras. Now that Leica is using the Olympus EVF for the X2, who knows which other technologies they licensed.... Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted August 10, 2012 Share #177 Posted August 10, 2012 Implementing an electronic shutter isn’t that difficult; the challenge is to implement a global electronic shutter with CMOS technology where electronic shutters are generally of the rolling shutter variety. Interline transfer CCDs achieve just that; the question how one could achieve the same with CMOS and still deliver high quality images. This challenge has yet to be met. I may be wrong but I think the Nikon 1's series have CMOS sensors. Anyway, engineers from large brands have confirmed in the past this target (an effective electronic shutter). They pointed to the problems you have explained though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted August 10, 2012 Share #178 Posted August 10, 2012 While we're on the subject of possible substantive improvements vs gimmicks, how about if the M10 had an in-camera pixel re-mapping subroutine in the menu, so it doesn't have to go back to Leica for a month for a 1-minute operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 10, 2012 Share #179 Posted August 10, 2012 Rolling shutter artefacts. Also there’s apparently no flash sync in electronic shutter mode. Panasonic is working on a global electronic shutter but it isn’t ready just yet. Thanks but I'm trying to understand what kinds of photos would show these rolling shutter artifacts as I am not familiar with them. (Other than in video.) A friend of mine who shoots stills on movie sets is considering the G5 instead of blimped cameras due to this silent mode. But he hasn't tried one yet to see if it will work adequately for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted August 10, 2012 Share #180 Posted August 10, 2012 Thanks but I'm trying to understand what kinds of photos would show these rolling shutter artifacts as I am not familiar with them. There are many samples on the Wiki page pf rolloing shutter ... Rolling shutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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